Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, my progressive and woke tribe and welcome to revoke rewriting our kids education podcast. My name is Michelle person and we are on a journey. We are rethinking or reexamining and re-educating ourselves and our children. And we just don't examine things that are in the classroom. No, sir, we examine and rethink everything. But this week we are examining an idea that falls a little closer to the classroom. Some swear by it, their children thrive. They think independently, and they become leaders. Others where the homeschool children are socially awkward and lag behind just a little bit academically. Well, who's right. And who's wrong. And is it an option for your child? I know individuals who are proponents for both. And I have to admit that the more time I spend in traditional education, the more time I find myself having a harder and harder time arguing that homeschool is a bad idea. I saw a quote on a homeschooling website recently, and it said that in education, the idea is to educate, not follow anyone else's schedule about when something should be studied. When you truly understand child development, it's hard to argue some of what homeschool has to offer and oh yeah. Are you woke
Speaker 0 00:01:49 Our guest today is Leslie Jones. Sessler a 30 year educator who has served as a teacher, a literacy coach personally, as my principal and assistant superintendent, a superintendent and a college professor. Leslie comes from a family of educators and is an educator at her core, which is why I was surprised to learn of her decision to homeschool her son a few years back. I guess I shouldn't have been too surprised since a census bureau survey indicates that the number of black homeschoolers has grown dramatically since the beginning of the pandemic from 3%, two years ago, up to 20, and those numbers are not tapering off. They are continuing to rise more and more parents are exploring homeschool as a viable option. And today, so our we Leslie Jones. Sessler thank you so much for joining us today to talk to us about homeschool. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 0 00:02:49 No problem. So can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you came to the decision, um, that homeschooling was for you? And when you talk about your decision, I need people to understand your background, cause you were not this huge homeschooling proponent, you know, uh, for the last, from, uh, for the last like 15, some odd years, I've known Leslie for a very long time. Um, um, disclosure. She was actually my school leader, um, when I was in the classroom when I taught first grade many years ago, um, and I've known Leslie for a long time and she was a dynamic leader and it was great serving under her. Um, and it's been through Facebook and social media. It's been awesome to watch as she has moved from, um, this champion of children's rights in the public school arena to deciding that for her and her son, that homeschool was the way to go.
Speaker 0 00:03:40 So, um, Leslie, can you give us, tell us about your background and what led you to the place where you decided that homeschool was right for you and Sammy? Sure. Well, thank you for letting me come and tell our story. I'll get to see you again after all these years. So as you know, I C I was your principal, your school leader. Prior to that, I was a school teacher for 14 years at a progressive educator. I did teach in traditional school in the beginning and then went to pursue my first graduate degree and learned about progressive education. And I was hooked. So I taught for 14 years that I became a literacy coach. And then I became an assistant principal at a charter school. After that I moved from, I was in New York, then New Jersey. Then I moved to Ohio and was the head of school, the founding head of school of an all girls school and loved it.
Speaker 0 00:04:35 Yeah. And then from that point on, I went to Indiana, which is where I am now. And I was an assistant superintendent over charter schools and also a regional development director where I opened up charter schools throughout the state of Indiana. So you are like, Steve, I hope everybody listening, her, all that she was. And she was in deep in the traditional public education system. And so like, but that is not where you are now. So, um, I know people are like wondering like, well, how did you go from there to doing this? Uh, then I became a mommy and I thought about becoming a homeschooler. I could not find the right school for Sammy. Our son is now six years old, having taught in amazing progressive schools in New York city and Brooklyn, and having been the principal of an amazing school, a progressive school, uh, loving so much about diversity and education when it came to children, when it came to staff, uh, and also the educational philosophy.
Speaker 0 00:05:44 I definitely wanted a hands on experiential approach for Sammy. I wanted him to come alive, be alive, be happy, be full of joy, have a voice, not be silence. I wanted him to just love education, loves school. And then I started looking here in Indiana for schools, and I did not find what I was looking for. So for example, neighborhood school, even though it's a great school with the report card and the grading system, it was not as progressive as I would've liked it to be. And then also diversity wise, Sammy probably would not have had a black teacher or principal, probably that even a principal until perhaps middle school or high school. And I'm the kind of person where I think Sammy was probably two. And I went and spoke with the superintendent separately and then also the principals separately. And I wanted to know, what are you going to do about diversity?
Speaker 0 00:06:43 Like where, where, where are the staff members that look like me? And I did not like the answer that I got. Um, and, uh, and having been a principal who you remember at our school was very diverse. That means a lot to me. And so I know that if it's a priority, you'll make it that so fast forward, um, decided that yes, at some point I would homeschool him was thinking age six, I've been COVID happened. And like a lot of people had to pivot. So did we? And so Sammy at the time was four. He was attending preschool at a wonderful school here three times a week. Of course, we pulled them out and started to, I guess, homeschooling and I did what most persons do when you're about to host, will you start looking for curriculum? You start thinking about, okay, what curriculum am I going to use?
Speaker 0 00:07:39 And of course in my head, I'm thinking, oh, I'll do a little bit of me. This workshop, writer's workshop, responsive classroom, all those great progressive educational things that you do train those things. Um, and I knew I wanted to do it the bank street way, which is my first graduate school. And that's, that's all I know and love trying to looking for a homeschool curriculum that was progressive. And I was asking the question, what are you all doing? And someone mentioned self directed education unschooling, and I'm like, what's that started weeding a book. Um, how children learn. I believe it is by, uh, John Holt learn more about unschooling self-directed education. And I was hooked. That's what we should be doing because education is designed and enhanced around the interests of Sammy. So I've been homeschooling him, unschooling him with self-directed education for the last two years, and it is the best fit for our family.
Speaker 0 00:08:40 Wow. That's amazing that first off, I love that story. Um, and there, there were so many nuggets that you dropped in the middle of it. The first thing was the fact that early on you went in and we talked about this before on rework. Um, you know, you have to be intentional about diversity. Um, and one of the things that we have 100% repeatedly advocated for our parents to do, even if you do decide to remain in the traditional education system, there are very pointed questions that you should be asking so that you can make your voice heard and, and get the results that you're looking for. And one of those questions is I don't see a lot of people who look like me, what are you going to be doing to, um, to change that? And we were talking off, um, off camera where I said that I am not, I am vacillating between, um, opening a micro school when my daughter who was four and about to turn five, uh, this is all either we're going to open a micro school and create our own tribe or the last district that I actually was employed with, not the most diverse, but definitely the most intentional about answering that question.
Speaker 0 00:09:46 Everything they did was purposeful around, making sure that all voices were accounted for and all voices were heard. So if I don't end up opening the micro school, if we put that off for maybe a year or two, that is a place because I got those, I asked the hard question, I actually worked there and I saw the work and I am okay with leaving my baby there to be molded and educated because I asked that hard question and I got the right answer. And so many times we ask those hard questions, don't get the right answers and don't push to make that, to make that happen. And so kudos to you for asking those questions when semi was too, it was maybe it was three, but he definitely middle to me. Like, why are you coming? Why are you asking this now? And I'm like, because I'm an educator and because I'm a parent and I need to do my homework.
Speaker 0 00:10:38 Yeah. Progress definitely takes time. It moves at a glacial speed. So, you know, I want to make sure that you are putting in the building blocks now for when my baby is ready to come to your school. That's why you said that unschooling has been the great, the best fit for you guys and your family. I want to know what are some of the benefits again, career and education far beyond mine. Um, you know, like very extensive, you've been all over the place. You've seen multiple different types of schools. You've been in different states. You've been in different cities. Um, and this, I mean, I can tell in your voice when you're talking about it, you love it. You know, you are 100% self directed education. This is awesome. So I want to know, given your background and given what you've experienced in these last two years with Sammy, um, what is it about this that you feel is so beneficial for our kids and why should more people consider it?
Speaker 0 00:11:30 Yes. Oh my goodness. Um, I literally have goosebumps as, as you were asking and talking about it because it's so exciting to see my son learn naturally. So that's number one. So as you know, even in progressive schools, the teaching and the learning of reading, how to become an emergent leader, you still have some constraints, right? You still have, okay. You got to get them to be a reader by a certain age, by a certain grade level because they have to move on to the next grade and they have to take a test. And with unschooling self-directed education, it's sort of like the Waldorf philosophy where Sammy is becoming a reader organically, naturally at his own pace and his own developmental style and stage. And I love that there are no worksheets. I do not use testing with him. A lot of literacy, as you know, I'm big on literacy.
Speaker 0 00:12:42 So we weed all the time. We go to the library, he belongs to a book club. I now write the day, my husband narrates the day. We played games all the time. Uh, it's hands on activities. We do uninterrupted play. And I'm a huge play advocate because I know that children learn their cognitive skills, social, emotional, physical skills, and more all through play-based education. What I love about unschooling is that Sammy has the time and the space to learn. Naturally, there are no constraints, so I'm not saying, oh, you have to stop doing this now because you've got to work on a worksheet. I'm not saying that at all, he has all day to develop his own passions, his own interests. And what I do as his facilitator is I see what he's interested in. I see that he spends a whole day tinkering and playing and just investigating, experimenting.
Speaker 0 00:13:38 And then in my head, I'm thinking, how can I bring the math and the science and the social studies and all of that into his world, unbeknownst to him, there's something that we called, uh, that we do in homeschooling called strewing. And it's when you leave objects, you leave things out, just leave it out. And he might actually navigate towards it and be interested in it or just leave it alone, but nothing to do with it. And so I'll do things like that throughout my day. He also do a lot of games, schooling. So Sammy's learning his, all of his math skills, computation skills. Uh, we read all the time. He's learning all of those skills through games. I mean, that's all we do is we play games that he plays all day. Uninterrupted play is so important guided play when I'm asking those open-ended questions.
Speaker 0 00:14:31 What I know when to go in and when to come back out when to observe him, I've seen nothing like this ever because in schools, it's what 45 minute time blocks, maybe 90 minute time blocks. Right? And then also in schools, we know when students finally have time to get into something and they're like, oh, I get this. I'm having fun, enjoying it. They're taking a deep dive. What happens? It's time to transition. It's time to shut it down. It's time to move on. That doesn't happen here. And unschooling, he gets up on his own. Michelle. Uh, he, I mean, everyone does it differently. Every homeschool, every unschooler, every person to self-service education. So for us, we all go to bed. When we go to bed, it could be nine o'clock, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock. He still gets us 10 to 12 hours of sleep at night.
Speaker 0 00:15:21 But when he wakes up, it's whatever he wants to do, he pretty much tells me based on his interests, what he wants to do for the day. I also do have him taking some classes and out school, the virtual program. And so, but again, those are based on his interests. So he takes a Lego's class, right? He takes all African storytelling class. He takes a dinosaur math class. He takes us singing in music class. He picks artsy ABCs. Uh, so he's having so much fun learning at his, his pace in his time and his space. And I am so happy that I don't have to put testing and give him a percentage and a grade like, oh, you're 90% or, oh, you're on reading level. If he weeds independently when he is seven or eight or nine, it's perfectly fine.
Speaker 0 00:16:20 I guess. So, as people are listening, you know, I feel like my listeners are probably going to be saying the same things they said when we did the, um, the Montessori, um, episode, which was well, all that touchy, feely, like how do they, how do you know, how do you know that they're learning? How do you, how are they being assessed now for the Montessori? I remember from the Montessori episode is actually it's the term that you use the facilitator or the guide. Right? Um, the guide actually in Montessori does a lot of the heavy lifting because they are doing exactly that they are trained in observation to see where the children are. And I don't know if they use the terms truing with that. You just described, like leaving things out, just for them to explore, but they definitely craft the open-ended activities based on the very intricate observations that they are doing to help grow the learning.
Speaker 0 00:17:12 And then there's two there's voice and choice, and they're able to pick their, their stations and their, and, and figure out what they're going to do. But it is very much, um, monitored, not controlled, but monitored by the guide or the facilitator. Um, and, and those, those observations, those detailed observations are what you use to, to be able to figure out how they are growing. And they're progressing. And my daughter goes to Montessori preschool, right, right, right now. And she loves it. And, um, it works for her, but they are still, they do still do some level of, um, of, I don't want to call it testing, but we get progress reports. And we know like, um, where, what letter she recognizes, what she's doing here, what she's doing there there's no, there's no. Now the, the, the idea of it has to be done by this date.
Speaker 0 00:18:00 That's not Montessori, but the idea that we are watching and we are helping them progress that is there, which, you know, works for me, what I'm hearing right. On the web. What I think my listeners might be hearing or might be wondering is where is that portion of it? Like, how do you, if everything is directed by Sammy, how does he know where to go next, um, to continue to grow? And how do you measure whether or not he's ready for the next step? So how does that work in and your version of, of all homeschooling? So in terms of both, okay. First of all, I think for me, I kind of have a little cheat sheet because I am an educator. So in my mind, I mean, I've had over three decades as an educator, right. Being an educator. So in my mind, I can look at something that he's doing and I'm like, oh, he's got this.
Speaker 0 00:18:53 Or I might say, okay, he doesn't have it yet, but it's okay. I know he's going to get there. So I very well could look at standards. I very well could take out the standards and the benchmarks for the state that I'm in. And I could just go online and look at all of that. And to be told, I have, from time to time and truth be told he has, he has surpassed those standards. Okay. Because he's, he has the freedom and the flexibility and the time to learn that. So I would say for parents who are wondering if they want to do this and measure the standards and whatnot, and how their children are doing, I would say, just let your children be. If you feel like you want to teach fractions, for example, right. And you want your talk to learn fractions, then get into the kitchen, start baking, start cooking, do some fun things.
Speaker 0 00:19:52 Don't take out a worksheet and do fractions teach fractions that way. So with Sammy, we do a lot of baking. We do a lot in the kitchen. Uh, even yesterday, my husband was working on some dimensions and he needed a ruler and he came up, he asked him, where's your ruler? Semi went up to his math. Ben got his ruler. And then my husband starts showing him what he's using the ruler for. So that's learning right there. It's time. It's and it's real application, which is what is missing. And when you're in school, you're learning it in isolation and you don't really see the connection. So it's like, why am I learning this? But Sammy's literally everything he's learning and make real strong connections right away, which is awesome. And there is no need for me to give him a worksheet with 20 problems for him to solve.
Speaker 0 00:20:43 And then for him to get frustrated, like we'll play games, he'll take a class, we'll work on a dish and we'll work on subtraction. Right. And he's got it. And so we move on to something else and I'll tell you one thing, Michelle, he is not frustrated when I tell you that he will come to me and say, oh my goodness, this word starts with this letter. And he's excited about it. Yes. When I say to him, Sammy, you gets the books and read. He's like, should I get five books? Should I get six books? Oh, wow. You know, he has been in he's six years old and he has been in five different summers, five summer reading programs.
Speaker 0 00:21:27 He values reading. He values literacy. When it comes to writing, I will write the stories as he's dictating them. Right. So you understand steers, they're symbols, that's, that's related to writing, but I'm not sitting here saying you got to write these sentences or you have to perfect your letters. I know that's going to come. So I would just say, try to find lessons that you want your child to learn, but your child is going to be engaged. Your child's going to be happy about it. So for example, chutes and ladders, you play chutes and ladders, right? So that's what he's learning place value matters. So we'll play. And then I'll take out the place value chart. And I'll say semi, okay. You're at 24, show me 24 to two tens, four ones. We'll have the math tube. So I'm doing like two or three different things at once with him.
Speaker 0 00:22:20 And he's picking the map tubes. He's showing it to me and he's not frustrated. So that's how I know that he's learning that skill. And I know as an unschooler that he's got time, I'm not putting a clock on it or a deadline. Right. So he's not going to perfect something that maybe should be perfected by second grade until third or fourth grade. That's okay. But chances are, he's going to probably perfect it by first grade, typically, because he's so smart and he's learning so much more than what he would typically learn in the classroom because you know, Michelle in classrooms, there's so much time that's wasted. Yes. With the transitions, right. With getting to every student with making sure every student is on the same page with making sure there are no behavior issues, making sure. I mean, there's so much time is wasted.
Speaker 0 00:23:11 When I tell you, we might sit down and work on something for three or four hours. One-on-one and it is amazing to see how he is learning and how it's like, he goes down the rabbit hole and it's it's working. So what I'm hearing is this is great because your kid is getting out lots of one-on-one attention. They are, they are exploring things that interest them and they are, um, and they are being able to apply in a real world, real world application, the things that they're learning, which makes the re the, the learning real and tangible, which is so important to be able to build those connections. Obviously, we, you had a little bit of a cheat sheet because you were in education. So you knew a little bit of this. Do you have any resources or tips for parents who are considering, um, homeschooling and, and, um, the first thing I heard you say was you went to Facebook and you joined the group.
Speaker 0 00:24:07 I always tell people that if you want to do anything in life, at this point in our, and our, in our society, go to Facebook and find a group there is a, or everything. So other than puzzle, would you have any other tips for people on what they can do if they are interested in considering this as an option? Yeah. So at first I would say, study your child. You really need to know who your child is and what makes your child happy. And I would say that if your child is currently in school, are they happy in school? Are they full of joy? Are they excited when they get to school? Or are they the opposite? Are they stressed out? Is there a lot of anxiety? Is there too much testing? Is it too much homework? Um, and, and how does your child learn?
Speaker 0 00:24:51 There are some children that do like a lot of structure. Sammy is not that child. He loves a lot of freedom. He loves to be able to spend hours working on Legos. For example, building constructing, he loves his freedom. And so once, you know, the type of child you have and how the child learns, then I would say, start to research, different types of homeschools. So like you said, there's Montessori, there's Waldorf, which I love Waldorf, right? It's not a Waldorf school year. Uh, there's classical. There's Charlotte Mason, there's world schooling, road schooling. There's a Becca that, um, Christian program, I believe there's so many different types of homeschooling and you really want to make sure it's going to fit your child's style. Also, if you have multiple children, I would not do a one size fits all. They're different children. They learn different ways.
Speaker 0 00:25:46 So once you've determined, what type of, of, of, um, a learning style and homeschooling curriculum that your child needs, then I would say, do the research. I read so many books about self directed education. I listen to podcasts. I listen, watch YouTube. I'm in clubhouse. I even have my own clubhouse rooms now where we talk about homeschooling a couple of times a week. Um, I have found my tribe. I've found my people where we support one another. Um, here in Indiana, I'm going to join once COVID is hopefully somewhat over. We're going to join other unschooling groups, self directed education groups of children and parents, families, where we belong to the same tribe. And that's where he'll get a lot of his socialization as well. So, I mean, I've got tons of books right here. I love Peter unschooling, John Holt, um, Ainsley armament, uh, uh, unschooled by Carrie McDonald.
Speaker 0 00:26:50 I mean, there's so many gurus when it comes to unschooling self-directed education. So for me, it's finding my tribe. It's talking with people and I talked to people that have done it for years that are just doing it for the first time now that are contemplating it. And we are here for one another. Um, and, and you'll find out that it works, whatever you, whatever style you want to do, just do the homework, do the research and see if it's a good fit. Awesome. Leslie, I want to thank you so much for taking time to talk to us today about homeschooling and all things, uh, unschooling, um, and your journey. And hopefully the listeners took a ton of different, um, nuggets that they can go back and implement for themselves. Thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, thank you. Can I say one more thing too?
Speaker 0 00:27:38 So I
[email protected], and I blocked a lot about my homeschooling unschooling adventures. And so if parents are interested, I have a lot of blogs about how I got started and why unschooling self the right to education. So again, that's watched monkey mama.com. Awesome. I will make sure that all that information are, is in the show notes and 100% that if you have any more, if you want to reach out to Leslie and you want to know more about her unschooling, Johnny journey, watch monkey, mama.com go there and you'll find all, all there is to know about her unschooling journey. And maybe you'll find out if it's right for you. Thanks again so much for taking time to talk to us today. Leslie, thanks, Michelle and innate love of learning, valuing of education and authentic learning experiences. What is there not to love? I want to thank my guests, Leslie Jones.
Speaker 0 00:28:29 Sessler for taking time to speak with us today and encourage listeners to follow her homeschooling journey on her blog. Watch monkey mama.com. Thank you for listening. Show notes and resources to the things we discussed today are available on our website at www just like me, presents.com. Share this podcast with other parents and educators in your circle and make sure you subscribe. So you never miss an episode. If you liked what you heard today, leave us a review reviews, help others discover our show and begin their woke journey. Have a great week. And remember if our children can see it, they can achieve it.
