Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello everyone. And welcome to the ReWalk. Rewriting our kids education podcast, episode 10. Welcome back. My name is Michelle person, and I welcome you on our journey of rethinking re-examining and re-educating ourselves and our children. On today's episode, we will be talking about woke schooling options and why it's important that we try to find a school that best supports our child and not a school that we force our child to adapt to our guest today is Arielle Hayes, and she is an elementary school principal and a large urban district where different school models are being cultivated. So that parents have true choice school. What do we know? We know it can be empowering. We know it's necessary and we know it can be life changing, but it can also be manipulative. It can reinforce negative images, stereotypes, and it can stifle growth on this podcast. So far, we have examined many aspects of school, the classroom and its subjects. But what about the model James Baldwin? The famous African-American writer who we have quoted before said the purpose of education is to create an, a person, the ability to look at the work for himself and make his own decisions. Are our schools doing that? Oh yeah. And are you okay?
Speaker 0 00:01:52 I had a great elementary school experience. It was a bit of a unicorn. Honestly, it was a small black Catholic school, and I saw myself reflected everywhere and the artwork on the wall and what the teachers taught me. Um, I didn't have a white teacher until fifth grade. The awards that were given at the end of every year, our awards were based on the new guzzle Saba, the seven principles of, um, African culture. So every year, whenever kid, other kids, I guess, were, you know, looking for the best participation trophy award or whatever award you get at the end of a regular school, I was looking for the Neo award because I wanted to know that my teacher recognized that I had purpose or I was, uh, looking for the, um, Columbo award because every year we did a school play and I wanted to be recognized for my creativity.
Speaker 0 00:02:41 That was the type of, um, of imagery that was poured into me and my elementary education experience. Um, it was academically rigorous. My mom still has all of the Stanford nine scores that I took each year. And I consistently scored in the 80th and 90 percentiles. I mean, overall it a great experience, but I recognize that I was very lucky. I was very lucky that traditional school worked for me, sitting still and filling out seat work and doing workshops came easy to me. I picked up reading quickly. Um, and for the most part, I really enjoyed school after 20 years and education, I can tell you that that is not the experience for many of our black and brown students. A lot of them honestly are miserable. Traditional education methods do not work as well for them. They process information differently and they need the information presented differently so that they can access it.
Speaker 0 00:03:38 My son was one of those students. I had to be very intentional with his teachers about the strategies that would, and that would not work for him. I had to advocate to make sure he got the proper supports so that he could feel successful. If I had to do it all over again, I actually would have chosen a different school model for him, particularly in high school when I was advocating, but not really listening or watching or understand, or maybe it was, I just didn't want to admit that my son was not necessarily going to follow a traditional path and therefore I should not have been forcing a traditional high school experience on him. So if I had to do it all over again, I would choose differently. Um, and what I can say is in my four-year-old, because I do have a four year old, um, she shares a lot of the same personality traits as her brother.
Speaker 0 00:04:33 I often call her, um, she's a TJ. TJ is my son, she's TJ with ponytails. Um, and I see that she is very much like him in a lot of ways. So this time I have made the commitment to being very purposeful in my school search to find the model that will best compliment how she learns instead of forcing her to adapt to the school model that I have picked. And there are so many models out there there's, inquiry-based, there's, project-based, there's Montessori, there's stem. I mean, the, the possibilities are endless, all are different, but they all have something to offer. And as parents, we need to be woke about the choices that are out there. So we can advocate for the option that best meets our child's needs. Our guest today has been educating for almost two decades. She knows what works and she is exploring new and innovative ways to help educate our children.
Speaker 0 00:05:31 And today she is going to share one option worth considering when it comes to school choice, Arielle Hayes. Thank you so much for joining us today to talk to us about Montessori school options. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. No problem. So I wanted to talk to you because obviously, um, full disclosure, Ari and I used to work together. Um, in Cleveland, we were both principals for the great Cleveland metropolitan school district. Um, and right as I was transitioning into a different role, Ari was offered a position to switch the type of school that she was the principal of. And the school she is working at now is a Montessori based school, um, which is different from the school that she had previously spent her time with. So I thought for this show where we're talking about school options and being woke, um, and rewriting our kids' education and figuring out what works best for our kids, you were the perfect person.
Speaker 0 00:06:27 And the first person I thought of when I had the idea to do this particular show about school choice. Um, and so I want you to tell us if you could, based on your experience being, um, coming from a traditional stem based school, and now granted this year was different with the pandemic, but I'm sure you've done a lot of research and you've done. And you did have some in-person experience this year with your students. How would you describe the Montessori model? And can you explain how it differs from the traditional public school model, um, in your opinion?
Speaker 2 00:07:01 So I would say in first, thank you for having me. Um, but some of the things that really stood out to me were, um, the three year age span that was completely different, um, for, uh, myself as a traditional educator, I've been in education for 17 years now, and I was a math teacher before getting into administration. And so my lands was targeted on a map, but then once I transitioned, I've worked at, um, the middle school and the transition to elementary school. So coming into a Montessori school and learning, cause it was, it was a learning curve for me. That's not my experience. You have the, the three-year age span, you have choice, which my kids were used to from a stem lands, but it's a different level of choice that scholars have
Speaker 0 00:07:49 Talk to me more. But yeah, that, that choice is big. They get to choose what they do, how they do it. So talk to me more about that choice because education it's like you have two choices, you can do this first, you can do this second, but it's my understanding that Montessori is a little bit different.
Speaker 2 00:08:05 So with Montessori, I just took a class over the summer. I'm super excited about a Montessori core principles class, which illuminated so much for me. And it helped me change and shift my thinking, um, on what it actually means. So all of it is still based on what that teacher does. And so in any school setting the teacher and then Montessori is called, they're called the guy is really responsible for guiding, leading and getting scholars where you want them to go. The reason that's so critical and so important though, is you feel have to craft what those choices are. And that's the part that clicked for me. Once I went through this course over the summer is recognizing just how important the teacher is in this entire process. You act as the facilitator, the teacher or the guide is in the background, but they have to set the stage and prepare that environment to ensure kids have the choices you are prepared for them to actually work on at that particular point.
Speaker 2 00:09:00 So you're always in tune with data. You should always be observing children. You should always be making sure you know, what they're ready for. And then being mindful, like, what are the next steps you need to put in place for scholars to ensure that they are growing? And I will say that having that lens where I know both parts is so valuable in my opinion, because I know what it's like to be standards-based and be focused on like, how do we cover all this content? And at the same time, understand the importance of allowing scholars to be more in the forefront of their own learning. So I would say it's not this huge difference the way in which I honestly thought it was when I first had the opportunity, but it's how do you weave it to make it feel more student student-centered and make sure that students are in charge of their own learning.
Speaker 0 00:09:51 So I hear from your answer that the biggest differences are the students are the guides. They are, the guide features on the guides. Okay. So the students are what, what's the term for the teacher's guide? What's the, I'm sorry, what's the term for the students?
Speaker 2 00:10:07 The students they're students, they're their children. They're you generally call them children. The teachers are the guides and the teachers are guiding where students are going. So this is why, like, I, what I found, any setting that lesson plan and having that all set up and mapped out for kids, it's still at the forefront of this entire conversation. Right. But it's empowering children to know that they do have voice and choice in what they're doing in the classroom. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:10:35 So when, in terms of w when it comes to the differences, the differences, it sounds like are more in terms of verbiage. So the student is still the student. We don't call the teacher, the teacher, meaning, uh, when people think of teaching, you kind of think of, you know, a Sage standing in the front of the classroom, giving the knowledge. Um, it does sound like in this model, the teacher is more of a guide, a facilitator, helping the children to soak up the knowledge that they need, but the teacher is responsible or the guide is responsible for placing them on the path the right way to make sure that they can succeed. Um, one of the other things that I heard you mentioned that it probably is a little bit different, is that three-year age ban. Can you talk a little bit about that three-year age ban?
Speaker 2 00:11:21 Yes. So they are, the students are put into different groupings. So if a student were to start at, um, the children's house or the primary level, they can come into school as early as three years old, which is different than, um, a traditional experience for a student, which would normally start at four. So that first grouping is three, four or five-year-old. So you have preschool students and kindergartners, you generally start, um, a student if they can start at three years old. Great. Um, and so that was one of the things that I learned in this process that we have little young baby start, and then they go on and they can support the younger scholars as they come in. Um, so that's a big part of it. And then we have had to, like, if you have a five-year-old, you really don't have a student coming in at the third level of that grouping and starting Montessori.
Speaker 2 00:12:14 So my school is set up where I still have Montessori and traditional, because you can't just throw kids into Montessori if they haven't already gone through some of those skillsets. So I'll still have single grade classrooms. As we transitioned in my teachers start to go through training. And I also still have this other model, um, where you have multi age. So when you get into lower elementary, right, that's first through third grade is best for students to come in first grade. They, if they didn't start in the children's house, come into first grade, and now we're teaching them what it looks like to be in a Montessori class. And what this choice looks like, how do they navigate this space? How do they work with scholars that are older than them, but they're all in this same classroom together. And then it basically like, from my understanding, I'm not perfect at it, but my understanding right now is it's how we lesson plan and we can extend the lesson or go back and find requisite skills. We need to work on all for this specific skill. And how do you work on that with this, these three different age levels or grades, so to speak within the same classroom. So how do you either map out from start to finish or extend learning in order to help them wherever they are in their learning path?
Speaker 0 00:13:29 So what, what it sounds like is you can have your kids start at any point in their educational career. The thing you need to be mindful of is where they start will depend on their entry point. Meaning if you start them at home and they're at the 3, 4, 5 group, and they start at three, they'll go right in, they'll learn and they'll grow. If they come in at second, they won't necessarily start at second. They might do a year of a traditional, more traditional classroom, get the basics of what Montessori is, and then be eased over into, um, the Montessori method. So,
Speaker 2 00:14:09 Yeah, second grader could come in and steal, potentially go into a Montessori classroom. We, the third year is where you don't have a student starting at third year. So you wouldn't have a student that's in kindergarten going into a brand new, going to a Montessori classroom for third grade or sixth grade, because they've missed all of these other layers that they would have needed to function properly and do well in that Montessori classroom.
Speaker 0 00:14:34 Parents make sure that any Montessori school that you're looking at tells you that, that that's a best practice. So you need to make sure that you're aware of, of how your kids should be slowly introduced to the system. So, all right. I want you to talk to me about some of the misconceptions. So I've got, I know a couple that when people think Montessori that like popped to my head, um, one of them is can this method work for every child? Meaning can this method work for students with behavioral issues? Can this student, can this method work for students with, um, with, uh, academic issues? What are your thoughts on them?
Speaker 2 00:15:09 I think it can. I think that the method is designed, giving kids choice should never be a bad thing. And so I keep that in the forefront of my own mind about, you know, how I explain advocate for students to come to our campus and the benefits of coming there. I think a lot of it is about the other supports you have in place in order to ensure that students can be successful. So, because we are a public school, I have intervention specialists on my staff, right. I have, um, someone in the planning center that can be there to support. We have a Dean, like we have all of these other supports in order to help us with, um, behaviors or academic concerns because we're a public school. And so I think that's very valuable and that's the lens I come from. I don't know what it would've looked like in another space, but the benefit is someone who is coming from a traditional perspective. I know all of the things our district provides as support, and I know how to tap into those supports and we have a large umbrella to support with that. And so I think that's been official, right? Like I know what it's like to work in the organization and be able to pull the resources that I think are going to help is about bringing in all of the, in my opinion, all of the resources that we have accessible to us to make sure students are getting what they need specific to their individual needs.
Speaker 0 00:16:32 I think that's awesome that you are part of a larger district so that you are able to tap into those resources. That I'm going to be honest, I don't know, exists in other traditional Montessori schools. So parents, as you're listening, I want you to understand that the resources that she's speaking about, some smaller private Montessori, um, institutions might not have access to. Um, but because her Montessori school falls under the umbrella of a larger public school setting, they are able to take advantage of some of the behavioral and academic supports already available in the district. And that being said to me almost makes Montessori an even better choice because you do have those supports, knowing what I know about Montessori, um, in the private world, uh, private school sector, I think parents, you have to be very, very, um, they like, like she said, they have a very different process similar, but it's longer.
Speaker 0 00:17:31 And there are different steps that have to be taken. So I think parents, you have to make sure that you are aware of what the process is when behaviors that you would like to see as extinguished come up. If there are concerns about academic achievement, you have to be very proactive and be well-versed in what their process is to make sure your scholar gets the help that they need. Um, can you speak to the perception that Montessori is a free for all? And it's not academically, um, it's not academically rigorous and that students can just do what they want to do, because like you said, it's about their choice. And so there's this perception out there that kids can pick. And if they say, all I want to do is math and I never want to read a book and they never have to read a book. And I, I know that's a perception, but I'm almost positive. That's not the reality. So can you speak to that a little
Speaker 2 00:18:19 So I can speak, then we'll have it here. Um, it will not happen on my watch and I don't, you know, there are a lot of perceptions and each district is different. Every school is different. And like you said, there is a difference between the public and private sector. I would say, as a school that is still, we're still, um, we still have guidelines from the state level. And so I have to ensure that when children leave, whatever grade they're in, that they are able to read and they are able to do math. And we have been integrating in non-fiction text and we're doing all of these things that really are, they're really critical to their academic mix. I would say the difference though, that I learned from my training this summer about Montessori really stem from like Montessori looks at everything from an observation perspective and that starting with the youngest child all the way up.
Speaker 2 00:19:12 And so even in my training, it was about looking at beauty. It was about looking at plants and insects and going out and just observing all of this nature. That's all around us that sometimes we don't take the time to stop and look at. Um, I will say we've had to look at videos even throughout the year of kids setting the table and kids doing these things that were not academic. And it's like, why are we doing that? But the class just helped me better understand. We're trying to prepare this entire child, the whole, like when you talk about the whole child, Montessori really is about the whole child and being comfortable with that. There is a space for the academic side, but there is a space for kids to be concerned about their environment, care about their environment, and know how to take care of their environment and know how to take care of themselves.
Speaker 2 00:20:03 And I will say, you know, when I first started in, um, elementary coming from a middle school, high school background, that was so different than me, like big, big kids at the high school. And then coming to, I was like, what is going on? The, what is going on though, was understanding that some of the things that people assume children come to school, what they haven't learned, and it's okay for us to help them figure those things out. And that could be manners, right? That can be how you speak to people that can be friendship, you know, relationships, all of those things still fall under the scope of what we are helping children get. And so it just takes me back to my days at UT university of Toledo, where you realize there are different curriculums that are going on in a school. And we have to understand that it's all not academic curriculum, but there are also other things that we have to bring out of children for them to live and be their best.
Speaker 2 00:20:58 And we have to be comfortable with that. So I am still very much like I want all my kids be able to read, I need them to read above grade level and how do we get them there? And that's very important to me. And I also want them to be able to socialize properly, to be able to speak to their emotions effectively, to be able to look at nature in a different way. Cause I'm not a, I don't have a green thumb, but it did make me more aware of my surroundings and not just flying by so many things in my regular life that I don't see all of this beauty that's right in front of me every single day. To me, that's not a bad thing to want kids to have that. Right. But it took taking a step back from my experiences to see it in a different way to say, okay, this is beneficial for children.
Speaker 2 00:21:44 How do we bring that to the forefront and still provide them with the academic rigor? Because rigorous still important that doesn't fall by the wayside, um, that we think is really important. I will tell you the training to become a credential Montessorian is a lot like it's very time consuming. Most people take off a whole year to do training when you're so far into your career, there's no way you can just take off to do a training and still need to, you know, take care of your other business. So we've been trying to navigate that space and figure out how to get teachers trying without taking them away from children, but also they have lives and they need to make sure they're fulfilling their best lives too.
Speaker 0 00:22:23 Sounds like for me, is that myth that it's just a free for all is first of all, not going to happen on principle Hayes is watch that's number one, number one, right? Number two is the amount of time that it takes to really be credentialed, to be a Montessori teacher does not lend itself to a free for all. It is very specific, very, um, intentional work. Um, and so parents, you can be sure that if your child is going to a Montessori school, the teacher, as long as they are credentialed, the, the teacher that is guiding your student knows exactly what they're doing to get the best out of your baby. So that whole it's Willy nilly, they can do what they want. That's that's not the case. We want to make sure we dispel that myth right here. Ari, can you talk for a minute about why do you think more black and brown families aren't taking advantage of this option?
Speaker 2 00:23:17 It's money. Um, most Montessori schools it's their private and it costs a lot of money to go to a, um, like a private Montessori school. So if you take money out, that's why there's so many, a part of these organizations, AMI or AMS. Those are the two different, um, big umbrellas for a Montessori are pushing an agenda now to, um, help with equity and inclusion within the Montessori world. Right? And so it's a big deal, but money is a big part of it. And then if you think about it, if you go to a Montessori school, a private, you don't have some of these other things that go on, um, statewide. So you don't have to worry about testing. You don't have to worry about like these different bureaucratic things that you have to worry about in a public sector. And so I think that plays a big part then when you have a public school, cause we have quite a few in the state of Ohio.
Speaker 2 00:24:18 Um, but when you have them, then there's a fear, like you said, like, how do you dispel those, those myths and beliefs about what it actually looks like? And so I would say for us, um, my goal is for us to, to be a shining star here in the community and for people to be able to come in and see what we're actually doing, the work that we're doing and with pride feel comfortable and confident sending their child to our school, our campus. And so I think it's just about being able to prove what you do, um, and provide a really good learning experience for children. And so you have to, we have to market that, right? So we have an enrollment coordinator that helps. She helps with marketing, um, because you do have to promote the good, so people understand what's actually going on.
Speaker 0 00:25:08 Well, hopefully after watching this and, uh, you giving us some insight, people understand that it is good, um, that there are a lot of benefits. Obviously money is, is huge. Um, and so parents, I would encourage you if this is an option that you are interested in for your, for your little one that you seek out and try to find the, there are a few public options, a lot of, a lot of larger, uh, public education systems do usually have one or two Montessori options. So, um, if you liked what you heard, if you think that, um, that this might be a model that would work for your, for your baby, I would encourage you to explore those public models, um, that might not, you know, cost you every last dime of your savings account. Um, so that you can see if this is the right fit for your child. Um, Ari is great. Great, great talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 00:26:01 Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 0 00:26:04 I think my biggest takeaways after that conversation are just the similarities that Montessori has to traditional public education. Um, and what really stands out to me is the level of expertise and education that a teacher has to have in order to be able to do, use that method with their kids. So the whole idea that it's loosey goosey and that there's not going to be a whole lot of academic rigor rigor for me displays out the window. Um, and it makes me more confident. Um, and possibly considering that as a choice, I actually feel better after that conversation. I hope that you guys do too. Um, please, by all means, if you have a question about Montessori education hop on over to our Facebook group, just like me presents, shoot us an email at info at just like me presents and ask us what you, what, what question that we didn't answer.
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