Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Well, hello, they're friends and welcome to Rew Rewriting our Kids' Education podcast. My name is Michelle Person and we are on a journey. We are rethinking, reexamining and reeducating ourselves and our children. As many of you know, I spent many years as a principal in elementary schools before making the transition into running my own school, which is what I'm doing currently. One of the hardest aspects of my job as a principal was discipline. Conventional logic will tell you that when a student breaks a rule, there should be a consequence. And if a student continually breaks a rule, there should be a more harsh consequence, a very simple subject on the surface. But I can guarantee you that in education there is tons of gray in this particular topic. The gray here is that the data tells us that black and brown students, as well as students with disabilities, are disproportionately handed or given more harsh consequences than their white peers.
Speaker 0 00:00:57 And if you are constantly on the receiving end of those harsh consequences, eventually you give up and may quit school altogether. This phenomenon has been called the school to prison pipeline, and though many doubt it, I can tell you that it is very real. My guest today, Leonard Webb, has spent the last 14 years working in the federal prison system as a counselor focused on keeping men from coming back to prison and others from ending up there in the first place. Angela Davis, a political activist and a professor at the University of California, Santa Cruz, said that when children attend schools that place a greater value on discipline and security than on knowledge and intellectual development, they're attending a prep school for prison. Are we being intentional and purposeful about the types of environments we are cultivating for our children during their learning environments that promote critical thinking, freedom of expression and true scholarly thought? Or are we creating the types of environments that are the easiest for us to control and thereby require a strict regimen of rules and consequences and Oh, yeah. Are you woke
Speaker 0 00:02:27 A few years back? I was the principal at the most ethnically diverse school I had ever encountered. It was a true melting pot with black, Hispanic and white students all finding their way into the principal's office at one time or another. I had a young teacher there that was struggling with classroom management, and I had a pretty good relationship with my middle schoolers. We had regular town hall meetings about the good, the bag and the ugly going on in the building, and we had developed certain non-negotiables, cursing at teachers, disrupting class, et cetera. We talked about why those non-negotiables were Im, uh, important and what would happen if a student came to my office with a referral and one of those non-negotiables was written on it, there would be an automatic consequence, no discussion, because we had talked about why those non-negotiables had to exist.
Speaker 0 00:03:12 Well, this particular teacher kept sending me one student, um, and on his referral would always be one of these non-negotiables. So he would always get a consequence, and the consequences by nature were supposed to escalate. As he got repeated defenses, it came time for this teacher to be evaluated. I went into her room to do her observation. I go on the back of the class and I'm watching the student happens to be in this class. Now, did this student clearly violate several of the agreed upon rules? Yes. Was it egregious? No. Were there three other students in the classroom who were doing the exact same thing as him and did not receive a consequence? Yes. Yes, there were. And two of the three students who were doing the exact same thing as him we're white. There was a lot of coaching at that point with this particular teacher, and I had to shift how I handled referrals that came into my office after that because even though it made more work for me, it needed to be done because the current system, the way that I had set up clearly, was allowing for certain groups of students to be targeted over others.
Speaker 0 00:04:17 I'm just one principal in one school, in one city, in one state. How many other students in schools and cities across the country are being disproportionately affected by school policies similar to the one that I had at my school? How do we change that and what are the long-term implications if we don't? That is what our guest Leonard Web is here to talk to us about today. Hi, Leonard. Thank you so much for being here with us today.
Speaker 2 00:04:42 Hello. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 0 00:04:44 No problem. Before we dive into this very important topic of, uh, the school to prison pipeline, what is it? How did it begin? What can we do to, to affect some major change in it? Can you tell our listeners, um, a little bit more about your background and how you came to do this very important work?
Speaker 2 00:05:00 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, I grew up in New York, um, but I'll skip all the way to when I started in law enforcement in 1990 as a police officer, I didn't enjoy being a police officer, so, and I made a career switch into corrections in which I was actually doing some of the things that I had dreamed about doing, helping people get better. I was a counselor in the federal prison system, and it started out as counseling all groups of men in the prison system. And my job was basically to make sure that they were staying connected with family. That basically they were being good prisoners was my job. Um, I enjoyed watching guys grow and develop and a lot of them getting out and not coming back. About 10 years in, I was able to be a part of a program that was young, which was defined, uh, men 18 to 30 with long sentences and sentences was defined by over five years.
Speaker 2 00:06:05 That was the beginning of me really starting to take deeps into lives and seeing what happened. And what I started finding out was there was obstacles, adversity in schools as early as kindergarten. I kept on that and I eventually went to a program that was a drug program that was dealing with a lot of guys getting ready to release and the same issues were coming up, they didn't have before. They released, didn't have job skills. So rather than put all my on addictions part of it, I put a lot of my focus on the life part of it, and I started seeing a lot of differences. It made, um, the recidivism rate for guys in my group was less than 40%, and I figured I was onto something and it just so happens guy's mom called me, she thanked me for working with him. She said she sees the change, and I said, what's his name?
Speaker 2 00:07:02 She told me his name. I said, ma'am, he's been gone for like five years and she know than know entire, he was locked up up every year for a period of time. He's never been outta prison. But before she left me on the call, she said, I appreciate what you did for my son, but wouldn't it be better if you kept young people outta prison rather than helping stay outta prison hard? I've always worked with kids since 1988, whether it was coach, whether it was, you know, youth programs or whatever it was speaking in schools. I'd always worked with kids, but I never really into it. And it just so happened right after that call, I read a quote from Desmond, sometimes we gotta stop pulling people outta the river and figure out while they're falling in. And then I just took a step back and I said, ok, God, I gotcha <laugh>. I hear you.
Speaker 0 00:08:09 Oh, like basically a, a a series of events that you kind of didn't have any. You were, you weren't, you were just on the path. You were on the path and you know, uh, this happened and led you to this part of the path. The revelation led you here. Then a phone call led you here, and then a quote led you to the very important work that you're doing today. So you went from essentially to paraphrase, working from to f trying to fix once they got in to being, um, uh, an advocate to trying to make sure they never enter. So, and I think that's, and, and that's the, the, the, the basic shift that we're, that the mind shift that we need to have as a country is like, let's, let's stop. Let's try to look at why they are entering and what issues are causing them to enter.
Speaker 0 00:08:54 Not let's not, we can still give them help while they're there, but let's also make sure that we're, you know, making sure that they have opportunities to not get there in the first place. And I think that a, a, a term which leads us today into our conversation that is coined or has been, you know, that you might see pepper today in society. It's almost becoming, I hate when things become catchphrases. I hate when, um, when the media starts using phrases. Um, I know funny. Um, in, in education, uh, teachers and administrators, arelike are so tired of the role rigorous, like it when you, when you start talking about rigorous instruction and you start talking about standards based, this and everybody, we start rolling our eyes because it becomes a catchphrase. And so a catchphrase that I know, or or a a phrase that seems to be used a lot these days is the school to prison pipeline.
Speaker 0 00:09:43 Um, and people talk about it like they understand it, but then I think when you really break it down, they don't understand it. And, and so I want you who as now this has been the shift of your work, keeping kids out of this pipeline, that that, and a lot of people will argue doesn't exist. But I think the data and the facts show that it does in fact exist. Um, and so I want you to tell us what is the present to school, school to pipeline as you understand it, and what would you love for parents to understand about this pipeline?
Speaker 2 00:10:16 I love that you started it off with, with that. Cause it sounds like a metaphor and it's really not. I've reversed engineered it. I've had the fortunate opportunity for my experience, which many people don't have to reverse engineer what happened, um, starting in the prison system. But what it's is a set of policies and procedures and the way we do things that make it more likely for kids to enter the prison system rather than graduate from school. And my my belief is it all started in the nineties. It, it was probably around before then, but my experiences from the nineties in which there was the crime bill that came out as a result of mass shootings, which we now see, but in the nineties it was really something new. So the mass shootings came and the crime had made a portion of it about school system and these zero tolerance policies and how do we make schools safer? And things was, let's put police in schools. Let's have tolerance policies. Eventually that policies not just for, and you need to go
Speaker 0 00:11:37 Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:11:38 <affirmative>, you threw a pencil, you need high schools filter. Elementary schools were suspended as happen was the mass incarceration even got greater from the early nineties to thes as a result of this pipeline of kids that were getting exp you're in school learning, are you, when you're learning things that you probably shouldn't be doing mm-hmm. <affirmative> and without support systems in place, these kids are in that pipeline that leads them behaviors and, and, and things that they're getting punished in school for right system.
Speaker 0 00:12:29 So for those of you who are not aware, um, the the zero tolerance policies that, that Mr. Webb is speaking about are, are things like, you know, you can, you, you know, um, if somebody, there are certain issues that you don't talk about. If a kid does it, it's, it's almost like the judge. The, the, the, it's almost exactly like the, um, the, the, um, the prison system. It, it, and the, and the, in the effect of mandatory minimums, meaning if, you know, if you do this offense as an adult, um, if it falls under whatever, uh, rule or, uh, code or whatever, whatever it is, um, if you do those, um, do that thing as an adult, the judge really has no discretion. You know, in terms of like how to sentence you, because the law says that if you do this, I must do this.
Speaker 0 00:13:16 Um, and as a principal, it's very much like that. Um, you know, there have been situations where, you know, we have a no a zero weapons policy. So, you know, a kid brings a weapon, a kid brings drugs, a kid brings, you know, whatever you have, whatever have you. And it is a zero tolerance. I must do this because the school district and the school board have said that we are zero tolerance. And, um, and this is how we handle in every situation, whether you be in a courtroom or the classroom, there is a lot of gray. And there have been situations in times where I have had to give a consequence because of a policy without being able to take into account the gray. Um, and, and then when you really dig into the numbers, um, I think that what you will find is that gray is what disproportionately, um, affects black brown and students with disabilities.
Speaker 0 00:14:16 Um, and so if you could, Leonard, like, can you, so we have, we have these policies, we have these zero tolerance policies, um, and we have these issues where, um, we are giving out these harsh sentences. Um, and so I, I guess my question is, do you see the same thing that I've experienced, which is the, it, it's one thing. So in, in theory, you would, um, apply these, these zero tolerance policies across the board and they should be colorblind. And it wouldn't matter whether or not the kid is white or pink or poked out or purple. But what seems to happen is as soon as you begin implementing these policies, the kids who are most affected by these policies are black, brown, and students with disabilities. Um, so my question is, why do you think that is? Um, and what can you, what, what, in your experience, how can we address that?
Speaker 2 00:15:07 That gray area is only for the ones that are reported. And that's one of the big problems. If somebody looks like me and I have a connection with them, then I catch them with, which is one of those zero tolerance or even a weapon, then it's up to my discretion whether I report it or not. And that's one of the reasons black and brown disabilities are getting reported more. So they're getting hit by the zero tolerance policies more. And what you'll find in the data is less than 20% are guns and violence and drugs. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, most of it for black and brown youth is what we call discretionary offenses. And that is being disruptive. What does that mean, being disrespectful? What does that mean? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And for people that don't have your cultural background or don't have any type of training and how things look in other cultures, they may take some things as immediate disrespect.
Speaker 2 00:16:17 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, the gray area. I can give you a great example of a principal told incident in Pittsburgh work, second grader to school, and she walked school every day. Well to school, were taking her money. So she decided, you know, you're not gonna take my money anymore. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And she brought a knife to school and they found it. And she, the thing that this principal did was it was very simple, why do you have a knife? Just the question why? And she told him that story, you know, I'm getting harassed, I'm getting bullied. My lunch money's getting taken, my shoes are getting taken. I'm tired of it. So this principal, instead of expelling her, he decided, we're gonna find a way for you to get to a, that can bring you to school so you don't have, and that's what the gray areas don't, is the why. And I think it's being portrayed as you have these kids that are fighting and doing all these things when that's not really what's happening, what's really happening. These discretionary offenses are being turned into these to policies. You disrespect someone, uh, disobedient. Those are the things that black and brown youth with disabilities are getting for they're school.
Speaker 2 00:17:48 That the, their white counterparts are the ones getting mostly suspended for those offenses. It's not the black and brown youth that are mostly getting suspended for those offenses, even though nationally black and brown youth are getting suspended at reach three times higher than white counterparts for the exact same thing. And I think what people need to be aware of, especially parents, is that it affects all kids, not just disproportionately affects black and brown children with disabilities, but you one bad teacher's day away from being caught in that system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> you one bad moment of your child for your kid to be caught in that system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it's important know kid is suspended by the eighth grade at least one time, they're 70% more likely not to graduate high school. Wow. So it's every parent's responsibility to know, I was one of those student suspended seventh grade, and luckily the person I got suspended graduated high school was, was 30% that it, but I even saw it when I look back in at my school where it existed and how different the punishments were being delved out between black and brown and children with disabilities and their white counterparts.
Speaker 0 00:19:26 It's so funny that you brought up that example of, um, students, it being, it not being about the fighting and the violence is the reason that they're getting suspensions since the disrespect. It's a disruptiveness. Um, and, and before you came on, I, I literally in my introduction, explained the story, um, about a teacher that I worked with, um, who I was trying to support because they were a first year teacher and, um, or newer to the, to their, I think she was in her second or third year, still very newbie. Um, and, um, we were trying to, um, help her gain some classroom management skills. And I was trying to coach her. And I had, had, I, I had a great rapport, um, with my middle schoolers at this particular location. I'm pretty much saying this, the story all over again because you didn't hear it.
Speaker 0 00:20:08 Um, but <laugh>, um, essentially what happened was, I, I came up with my middle schoolers about, you know, hey, um, you know, we had town hall meetings every week. And I said like, like, there are things that you guys are doing that you don't understand that are disruptive. We have too many kids in our classes. When you do this, this can't happen. And, you know, build that rapport. Like, so when you do this, I have to do this because my responsibility is to the other 25 kids in the class, I need you to understand it. It's not personal, it's what it's had a whole. So, and they, they understood like, if you do this and it says us on a referral, this person's going to do this. They would come down, there was this one teacher and there's one boy in particular. He would come down, he would have the thing on the referral.
Speaker 0 00:20:46 I'd be like, did you do this? And he'd be like, yeah, but, and I'm like, well, there is no yet, but we had the conversation. I explained it, blah, blah, blah, blah. I had to go do her, um, I had to go do her, um, her evaluation and I'm in her classroom and I'm watching, that particular boy was in there. And so we're about three other people and they were also, and two of them are white. One was black. And him, and I'm watching the other students do exactly what he was doing, but there, she's, the way in which she's responding to them, the way in which she's talking to them, the way in which she's deescalating them is 100% different than the way she was deescalating and dealing with this one in particular. Boy. So what that did for me was I had to go revamp my entire thinking process.
Speaker 0 00:21:28 And it took more time for me because yes, there are still issues where, um, where where disrespect and disruptiveness is an issue and you cannot allow one child to run an entire classroom when there's one teacher and 30 kids. Um, you know, and, and, and a, a kid is, is, is, is, is is screaming out or throwing pencils or, you know, whatever. Cause that's, there's a whole there, there, there's a lot of gray there. Cause urban education is, is is fraught with that. Um, but also what I, what I learned from that was instead of, I had to do for every referral moving forward that came through, I had to do deep investigation. Meaning I had to talk to that student. I had to talk to, I had to pull kids out and talk to the teacher and, and talk to the other kids who were there.
Speaker 0 00:22:12 I had to actually call the teacher and be like, ok, tell me exactly what happened now. And then I, because it was without that level and what, what, what ended up happening was, and then I had to give that teacher extra coaching. Um, because what, what ended up happening is there was clearly a cultural divide between this teacher and this student. Um, they were not able to bridge it on their own. Cause the child is 13 years old. Wouldn't the teacher is, you know, a grown woman who's, who is taking everything that this child is saying as you know, disrespectful. Um, and there's no relationship. So there was a lot of work that had to be done to be able to try to get this one particular child out of the system that was escalating and going to eventually cause him to be suspended and or moved and or you know, blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, so it is that, I mean that I I very timely that you said that. Cause I was exactly my own personal experience. Um, it happened repeatedly. Um, so ahead.
Speaker 2 00:23:08 It's the assumptions that create all the tension in the relationships. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, the biggest assumption when I left the prison system after seven years to get into the educational system, the first place they wanted to put me was an alternative school. Alternative school. And why would that be? Because you alternative school to function like a prison. So you want somebody that's a prison expert make compliant <affirmative>. I think I found first educational system idea was to treat every student a certain way. And my thinking, even when I was in a prison system, counseling grown men, is that each person deserves to be talked to, addressed in a certain way. And I think we pull everybody together. Well this works for, you know, 90% of the class. Why isn't working for the 10% or 10% needs something different, uh, needs to be engaged differently. One of the biggest things that happened for me when I was in the prison system was instead of calling the guys inmate or, you know, common convict and all that kinda stuff, I never really got to that, but, or what's your number?
Speaker 2 00:24:32 Inmate number and things like that. I started calling them mister. And that's when my relationships began getting deeper mm-hmm. <affirmative> with them. And they've began feeling comfortable with me. And it's the same thing with children is that if I go at each child, my first job when I substitute substituted, I walked into the classroom and all the black kids were like, oh my God, a black man teaching. And their reaction to me was the run up, give me a hug, gimme a high five. And that made a lot of white teachers uncomfortable. Cause they didn't have that relationship. Why doesn't this kid do this with me? I've been with them all year and they don't do this with me. And rather than be offended, understand it, it's, it's something cultural. This is the first time, you know, some of these fifth graders have ever seen a black man teach, ever known that a black man could be a teacher.
Speaker 2 00:25:31 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when we dive into those assumptions, and I had, and that reminds of a recent story that I tell you is that I'm working in high school as part of guidance team. There was a girl, a young black girl, and she was having some difficulties and some struggles. And I built a relationship with her. She came into my office and always have candy and snacks and she would grab you knows of candy. And I was, and we developed a great relationship. She stopped by and see me, one of the teachers approached me and said, you know, she's playing <laugh>. I was like playing.
Speaker 2 00:26:21 So I had to tell safe. You're having, I, I let the teacher know. I said, you know, she comes in here, she grabs candy, but did you know she left $2 for me that I gave back to her. But she told me, she said, Mr. Webb, I come in here and I take your candy and I take your food and you don't ever get anything back. I just wanted give you something back. And I told this teacher, she learned that from somewhere I'm probably ever gave her something and didn't want anything in return. Anytime she got something from school is, cause she sat still, she did this, she did that. No, no adult in the building has ever given her something just outta genuineness. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And she couldn't understand that. And that's one of the problems. We're not building relationships with students so that we can understand why things are
Speaker 0 00:27:22 Happening. Yeah. I, these teachers are so important and I, I mean I, there are so many stories we can sit and talk for hours. I had, yes, absolutely had two, had two gentlemen teachers, um, about the same age. Um, both, both white male teachers. One of one teacher had absolutely no problems at all. Classroom management. One kids were constantly storming out. I hate him. He gets on my nerves. He's always trying me. And really what and what the difference really was, and it was hard to try to get the second teacher to understand was both of the men were very sarcastic. Children respond, can respond well with sarcasm and they can go back and forth with you. The difference was the one gentleman was a coach at the school. He had been there forever. He, I mean like, and so he, without even trying, like he had a relationship with so many of those students, the things that he could say to those kids and they would be like, all right, it was okay cuz he said it.
Speaker 0 00:28:19 The other teacher could say the exact same thing and it would be like, like, I can't you, you know what he said to me? And I'm like, but I heard the other teachers say the exact same thing to you when you laughed. But when this guy said it, and it just, it, it has everything to do with relationship. Um, and so, and I wish, I wish more people understood that. Now I'm gonna shift for just a second because the next part about that is, is how do we, cause the reality is that now it helps 100% to have those relationships. It really, really does. And they are so uber important. But the other, the, the, the other part of that, that seesaw, um, in, in, in education period is finding that balance. You talked about that balance. And there are situations where children are, are definitely 100% being purposefully and maliciously disruptive and disrespectful.
Speaker 0 00:29:17 Um, and so how do we ensure, um, and, and because of that, they are literally taking away like they're, I mean the the funny and people talk all the time about like, oh my god, Johnny didn't come to school today. We can actually learn. There are literally children, babies who when they are gone throw all like the entire classroom energy ships, you know, it's a, it's a whole and like you can get so much more done because these one or two students are not there. And, and so my, my question is, how do we ensure that we're not sending our problematic students into this pipeline They can't get outta, but at the same time making sure that the other students in the classroom are able to enjoy a safe and, and trauma and trauma free learning experience. Like how, how do you balance that?
Speaker 2 00:30:08 That's really tough. But it all gets into the relationship between the administrator of the building, the teachers, the parents, and that student. And everybody has to be on the same page. So not only are you building relationships with the students, but you have to build relationships. The, the administrator sets the culture and the teachers take that culture as we to call. It's a culture at the top. Then those kids don't have a chance. The school has to be a comfortable place for a parent to enter. And when you're having these conversations, teachers and administrators need to be aware. Parents don't know what four, they don't know that language you have to speak to in parent language so they're comfortable. Cause when you start talking IEPs and five fours, a lot of parents think you're talking over them. Um, if they don't understand, they won't ask questions.
Speaker 2 00:31:17 Cause they don't wanna, like, they don't know what they're doing or not smart. So you have to provide the environment where a parent can come in and say, these are the issues I'm having. Build a relationship with the parent. So you can go to the parent and say, this is what's happening without the parent being offended. Because if the first phone call you make to a parent, it's about your kid did this and your kid's doing this, I don't wanna talk to you anymore. But if you start that first form two, three days of school and you go to that parent and you say, you know, you're welcome to call me anytime. I'm glad your kids in my class. I'm trying to build a relationship. If anything, if there's anything I should know, this is how I do things. I want your child to see themselves in my classroom. Now you have a opening for a conversation when things come up, Hey, this is Mr. Webb, you know, John's been disruptive today, threw a pencil. Um, you know, he went to the principal's office. Nothing's gonna, is anything going at home? I've already had that conversation. Yeah. You know, I'm going through divorce if I don't have that conversation and that's the first time I'm calling, it's none in your damn business.
Speaker 0 00:32:35 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:32:38 So it starts with that where you can build those conversations. It continues to happen. Schools have to be the place that knows where the resources are and how to get them and make them available. And we miss that connection with local service, social service agencies where they're invited to come into the school maybe one, two times a month to say, Hey, these are the issues that we're facing. Do you know anything? These conversations aren't happening. It's just they're these bad kids and we don't know how to handle.
Speaker 0 00:33:11 Yeah. So definitely what I, what I heard from there is we need to make sure that our, um, we need to make sure that our parents are, are our partners and, and education. Because if you are a part, if you have a partnership with the parents, a lot of times you can um, you can head off some of that problematic behavior before it becomes extremely problematic. Um, uh, anything now, now let's say a parent has, uh, is involved and they see their kid, um, being, being kind of pigeonholed into that pipeline where they see that they're the, the, um, the, the, the infractions they feel are, are being pushed on their child or harsher than probably what need to be. What, what can parents do or what should they say and how can, how can they come back now that they're aware? We spend a lot of time today talking about the phenomenon. They are now aware of the phenomenon. How do they combat the phenomenon?
Speaker 2 00:34:02 Three words really be that parent, be that parent, have your knowledge and resources together. One of the recommendations that I had for a parent was that child was being question in the principal's with a law enforcement person present, that's not a protected conversation as long as a law enforcement officer can hear your child's in jeopardy. Something your in jeopardy of question. Even it's something as, as your child is in jeopardy. So your has a i it's mandatory that for me at least, that your child cannot be questioned without you present cause of their authority. Figures intimidate that child into saying things that they may or may not be true. It's a simple thing to put iep, but you have to be that parent and speak up. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you have to be that parent to, to be at the board meetings or to watch the board the replays of the board meetings and see what's going on.
Speaker 2 00:35:11 You have to be that parent that calls your teacher. If you haven't heard from, you have to be that parent. You know, we have Zoom and all kinds of stuff. You have to be at that parent teacher conference. You have to, you have to much, you know, going some blind don't feel like, um, there's a ever a stupid question. If you don't understand something, speak up. If you, if you need representation, you can take somebody to a meeting. You, you can have an attorney present if you like, as much as it may not, you know, administrative school boards may not like it. You can do that. And it ultimately you have to be a stakeholder in your student's future. And you have to be that parent as much as, as much as other people. But in's society, you have do that parent, you have to be a hard charger. You have to be involved, you have to know what's going on locally. That's the most important election. If you don't vote anywhere else, your most important election is your school board election. Cause that's gonna determine how your kids are disciplined. How your, how your school is going to be for your child and ultimately how their future's gonna turn out.
Speaker 0 00:36:40 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> awesome. It's so funny when you said, uh, be that parent, um, and I hate to admit this, but 100%, like there were parents, there were parents that I had and I would, a kid would get sent and I'm like, you know whose child that is? Are you sure? Are you, before I call home, are you sure that you, are you ready for what's about to? And then no, no, no. Like I, we had you make sure you have your ducks in a row when you're that parent. And that is not a bad thing. That means that we know that your child, like if, if we're about to assign a consequence, we are gonna make sure we exhausted every single resource before we made that phone call. We make sure we're making sure that we are on a no stone unturned when dealing with and every child should have that opportunity to, to, to make like to where we are making doubly, triply sure that we are assigning consequences fairly. Do you have any tips or resources for parents who are looking to be that parent to, to or who are looking to be more active so that they can um, you know, help disrupt this school to prison pipeline?
Speaker 2 00:37:43 Um, just for everybody. I, I tell people to take the risk and you have to have those hard conversations with your child. You have have those hard conversations with your teacher, have conversations with the administration and consequ. Those teachers need to build real relationships with the students. As simple as what music do you like to listen to? Do you have a, and it may seem corny or whatever, but at least the student knows, you know what, this teacher's invested in me more than just math, more than just English. This teacher has an investment in, so parent teacher administrator is first developing real relationships. The I is for intentional actions, which you have to be intentional with your time, with your resources, not making assumptions. I think a lot of people in administrative positions think that if you're black or brown or if you have a disability that your college is already paid for, and a lot of times we dunno where scholarships are, we don't know what is.
Speaker 2 00:38:49 We don't know. And we have to be intentional about resources that we have, the availability of things as educators and let each child know that this is available to them. Not assume that those things are available. Being intentional with your wanna have lunch with me, wanna, you know, talk those things. Being intentional rather than, you know, doing paperwork or something. Be intentional with your time and your resources and the s is safe spaces. And you create safe spaces by being intentional with your time and your resources and creating relationships. And you'll find that kids are gonna start to come to you to have those hard conversations. They're not gonna be afraid to go to dad and say, Hey, I messed up. They're not gonna be afraid to go the teacher and say, Hey, you know what I'm struggling with? Create safe space. Have and is asking questions.
Speaker 2 00:39:54 Each student is different. Never make assumptions, keep asking questions. If you dunno, question, parent question, teacher question the administrator. Each child should be able to see themselves in their classroom and each parent should go to their And how can my child see my, see themselves in your classroom? Each parent and teacher should be able to go to an administrator, principal and say, how does my child, how can my child see themselves in this school? Every everybody knows whether parent, teacher, administrator, who the high are, everybody knows who the behaviors are. But do we really know everybody in between? That's where we make the difference because the ones in between can go two ways and we can pull the behaviors, the ones that are struggling up another category, but we can't afford to keep losing kids in that middle category. And we keep losing them.
Speaker 2 00:40:59 We don't know them, their likes and their dislikes. We don't know them on a personal level and then get ignored. And just to end it, there are three things that each parent should look out for. And the one is invisibility. And that means is my child being called on? Is my child being addressed when they walk by? There's my child walking to that school and there's somebody telling them good morning. A lot of times black and brown and children with disabilities aren't visible in their school. So make sure when you wanna talk about school, did people speak to you? Were you called on in class Now how many times were you called on in class this week? Um, especially with AP classes, a lot of times black, brown and children with disabilities are ignored when it comes to signing up for AP classes. They're not even offered the opportunity to.
Speaker 2 00:41:55 So make sure that they're not invisible in your school. The second one is hyper visibility. And that goes to the disciplinary process and that means black and brown youth and children with disabilities are being seen more in dress code violations and behavior violations and disruptiveness violations. And you wanna look at those things. All those things are available online for your school to see. The percentage of kids black and brown that are suspended kids, they're white counterparts. You can look that up online for each state. Nationally it's about, and I've been doing a little research with black and brown girls cause they seem to be disciplined and group don't about today, but they're sometimes eight times more likely suspended. Some states in other states things. And the last one is the mis recognition. And what that means is a lot of the data that you may see, you have to be aware that a lot of that data is based on their white counterparts, not based on black and brown. And with disabilities. You make sure at too, too good to be true. It may be too good to be true. You wanna make sure that black and brown and children with disabilities are represented in the data. So,
Speaker 0 00:43:45 Gotcha. Well thank you Leonard for all of that. I think that you've given us a lot to think about. Um, and thank you so much for the work that you're doing, um, with the school to prison pipeline and trying to break that and disrupt that. And thank you for being here. Teachers and administrators build relationships. Parents don't be afraid to be that parent. Thank you again to our guest Leonard Web for being with us here today. And thank you for listening. Show notes and resources to the things we discussed or available on our website at www, just like me presents.com. Share this podcast with other parents and educators in your circle and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you liked what you heard today, leave us a review, reviews, help others discover our show and begin their woke journey. Have a great week and remember if our children can see it, they can achieve it.
