Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, good people and welcome to rework or rewriting our kids education podcast. My name is Michelle person and we are on a journey. We are rethinking re-examining and re-educating ourselves and our children. On today's episode, we will be talking about being woke and higher education. We spend a lot of time on this show talking about the importance of diversity and education at the elementary and high school level. It's important to remember that these issues do not just disappear in higher education, diversity equity and representation is just as important at the university level. If your child is about to make that transition to the next level of education, then you don't want to miss this show. Our guest today is angel Bea Perez, the CEO of the national association for college admissions counseling and his role. He represents more than 25,000 admissions and counseling professionals worldwide committed to post-secondary access and success. And he is going to chat with us today about diversity at the university level, what to look for and what to ask for as you embark on the next leg of your educational journey.
Speaker 0 00:01:46 I am here today with a special, special, awesome guests. Uh, angel Perez, angel Perez is a friend that I have known for a very, very long time. I am not going to say how long I've known angel, because that will date us both, but angel is the chief executive officer at the office of national association for college admissions counseling. Did I say that right, angel right. Well, we are so happy to have you here today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your schedule to talk to us and
Speaker 2 00:02:16 Good to see you. It's been a long time. Yeah,
Speaker 0 00:02:18 It has. My first question today is the same question I've been asking. Some of the other people that I've been talking with is describe what you do in your current work and how it relates to diversity equity and inclusion.
Speaker 2 00:02:31 Sure. Well, actually I might start where I was before, because I'm relatively new to this job. So I spent 22 years in higher education as a enrollment officers. So admissions counselor, all the way through chief enrollment officer at some of America's most selective institutions. And then most recently moved to represent the people that do that work on a national scale. So the national association for college admission counseling has over 21,000 members and they're all high school counselors, admissions officers or college counselors. And we do a lot of advocacy training, professional development in order for them to be successful doing their work. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:03:08 Okay. So that being said, what does it mean to, to foster diversity in that space?
Speaker 2 00:03:15 Yeah, that's a really complicated question and we are dealing with that right now as we speak. I mean, a big part of it is I see a two-fold one is how do we make sure that the people who are doing this work and if you are a parent, you know, what I would say is are, is your child's school. Counselor is your child's college counselor, or when your kid is ready to go off to college is the admissions officer that your child is speaking to really represent diverse backgrounds and experiences. And so we're thinking about it from the perspective of the professionals who are doing that work, but we're also thinking about it from colleges and universities, which is a big part of our membership, right? How do we make sure that more low-income first-generation students of color, marginalized populations get to college in this country because we know that that is a road to success. And so for us diversifying higher education is also a big,
Speaker 0 00:04:12 Well, you kind of answered the third question that I was going to ask, which is why is that important? Actually, that would have been the second question and that, and it's because we know that when you have access to higher education, that is how you, you know, that's your golden ticket in a lot of cases, especially in this country. Um, so, so then I guess the third question would be, what would ha, what does that look like? What does it look like to improve, um, equity and diversity and inclusion training amongst those in that height and that counseling, the diad, the admissions counselors among the high school counselors, what does that look like? How do we get there?
Speaker 2 00:04:48 Yeah, I think it's the long road, but I think about it in several different stages. One is, you know, starting with diversity, right? Are multiple identities represented in the workspaces with our school counselors, with our college counselors, with our admissions officers. Um, as well as, as our higher education spaces, you know, when you and I went to college and we're not going to talk about the year when that happened, um, our institution was not very diverse. I mean, you and I represented a lot of that. Diversity and institutions have certainly come a long way, but they are nowhere near representing really the population of the United States. And so making sure that as many different voices are represented is step one, but then you have to talk about equity. And basically the question that I always ask around equity is does everyone in your organization have access to the same experiences and resources? And the answer is no. And oftentimes particularly on college campuses, the answer is no. What are you doing about that? So that you can make sure that the experience is equitable for everybody.
Speaker 0 00:05:53 It is so funny that I remember it. I can, I can, I can, cause I know you probably remember the same thing at Skidmore. Skidmore is where we both went to undergrad. Um, I would tell people the story of how, how all of the different, uh, late night shenanigans that would happen would occur and which, which lounge was it, where all the computers were that the one place where you could go on campus and they would stay open.
Speaker 0 00:06:21 And I would preface, I was telling people a story and somebody pointed out, they were like, you know, you have to preface the fact that that's where all of the, like all of the students of color were, you know, at three o'clock in the morning, because that was the only place you could go. If you did not have a computer in your room. And I remember waiting sometimes because every computer was taken, they were not all functioning. You know, the library ones were really nice. The ones in some of the office buildings were you, well, you could go on like the little, you know, some of the rooms, but the ones in that particular computer lab, the only one that stayed open 24 7, the one that was most utilized by students of color was probably the crappiest one on the, on campus. That's equity. That's like making sure that the, even though we were there, we still couldn't participate completely and fully. So I think awesome point
Speaker 2 00:07:15 It's huge. And then, you know, the last thing I would say is, is belonging, right? And that, it's almost an extension of the inclusion, right? Is, does everybody's ideas, thoughts, perspectives, do they matter in the organization? Are they encouraged? Are they also, you know, um, implemented? And so that's, that's, I would say one of the phases that we are aspiring to a lot of colleges and universities, for example, they might do a really good job of diversity. In other words, they are admitting more students that come from diverse backgrounds, but unless they have equitable access to the experiences and then they really feel like they belong, then they're not going to have a good experience.
Speaker 0 00:08:00 My question, I guess, for you, since you are transitioning into this different space, is from where you sit now compared to where you've set previously, what should be improved upon first? What's the, you know, if you're looking from where you sit right now at, at, um, how people are admitted to school, the resources needed to get them there, to keep them there. Um, the need for a diverse group of counselors, admissions, counselors, school counselors, that's, that's a huge bucket. Where, where do you begin? What is, what is our first, what's our first goal? What's the first thing we have to do in order to make this work?
Speaker 2 00:08:37 Yeah, it's a big question. And I wish we had like 45 minutes to talk about it. Um, but I would say, you know, as a nation, we really need to grapple with the fact that, you know, our systems of education are not equitable. So it's interesting because the space that I live in and have lived in for a long time has been higher education. And, you know, the media likes to focus on the fact that colleges and universities are not admitting enough diverse students. The problem is not starting at the higher ed level. It starts at pre-K right. What kind of resources and access are we giving to families so that we can set them up for success. And also, you know, why is it that this neighborhood has way more resources than the other neighborhoods? So systemic racism is here and real. Um, and so we need to deal with those levels at the pre K through 12 level first, I would say, and, you know, on a broader systemic level, it's really that this country has to grapple with in the federal government, not just local governments, but the federal government has to think about how we fund education in this country, because, you know, if we're really going to truly become more diverse, that there is a financial component to this, and we need to fix that model.
Speaker 0 00:09:49 So I, I would say I'm 100%. I agree with that simply because I am from the, for pre-K kindergarten, first grade model. And it's amazing the things like we were just talking on camera, the miracles that, you know, with very little funding that, um, at the elementary level, you were expected to be able to perform so that they can be ready to succeed. When they come sit down in front of a high school admissions, count a college admissions counselor or their high school counselor. Um, and, and you are right. It just, you know, you can't, and you can't start at the top. This is not going to be a top down fix, not in that at all. So, um, I love that. And then even if by some miracle, someone is able to make it all the way through. Um, there are so many documentaries that I've watched over the years that that highlight the disparity, um, of how we fund education, higher education.
Speaker 0 00:10:39 So that even if you get a, if you are lucky enough to be someone who is a, who has made it all the way, you have a maneuver through every crack, every you have jumped over, you have been resilient, you have persevered, you still can't afford it because of how it's funded. And I think that would be, I think that actually would for the, for the, for where we sit, um, in terms of where you specifically sit in your arena, advocating for, um, you know, changes to federal funding, I think would be a great first place to start. Um, and I think advocation, um, with parents and, you know, the parents who are watching and the teachers for equitable funding at the elementary level would be a great place to start, you know, for, for people at different levels of, of where their kids are at this particular moment.
Speaker 2 00:11:20 You know, because you have a lot of parents who are listening, I would say, you know, sometimes parents feel helpless in this space, but the reality of the matter is you can change the system by who you vote for the legislators in your area, not just nationally, but in your area are the ones who are actually voting on school budgets on higher education funding. And I will tell you that higher education funding continues to decrease every single year and guess who makes up for those losses, the consumer, which is the parent and the student, right? And so higher education continues to get more and more expensive. But, you know, one of the things I would say is pay very close attention to how your local legislators are voting on higher education budgets, because that cost will be pushed down to you.
Speaker 0 00:12:05 I think that thank you for that, that little gym. I think that that's very important for people to recognize. We get so caught up in figuring out who's going to be the next president, or who's going to be the mayor, um, you know, or the governor. And you forget that there are so many things that, um, I tell people this all the time when I'm, uh, trying to explain that principals really have no power. Um, you know, we, we, we, I am a, I am a manager. I am a manager of the superintendent who has an agenda in the school board, and then the parents who have an agenda and my goal is to manage both parties. Um, and I have no real, like I, my job is to try to make those two parties get along so that we can move forward, you know, and, and, and push something out that that's good.
Speaker 0 00:12:48 Um, and I think if people looked at their local politics kind of the same way, um, it's not the mayor, it's not the mayor, it's not the governor. And it's not specifically the president. It's the people who make up your city council. It's people who make up your, your, um, your state assembly. You know, those are the elections that you have to pay attention to and do homework on, but what is, what are their stances on, you know, federal education funding, and how have they voted in the past? Um, you know, and once you are educated about those issues, take that information and you use your, you use your voice, your checkbox
Speaker 2 00:13:24 That's right. You know, really quickly I was smiling while you were talking about the fact that you had no power as principal. Um, I felt that way in higher education, I told people as a higher ed leader, my only power was the power of persuasion, but in terms of real power that lied with the board of trustees, right? And sometimes even with alums who use their voice to move policy change. So, you know, I think a lot of people don't realize that for a lot of people in our positions, it's persuasion. That's about all we got.
Speaker 0 00:13:52 That's all we have. I am so glad I was able to persuade you to come on and have this conversation. It's been great catching up. Um, and I hope that you guys got something out of this. I hope that you understand a little bit more about how things work behind the scenes and the type of advocacy that, you know, w will fall or does fall on us as parents, as educators, in order to be able to make these diversity equity and inclusion goals, tangible and real. Um, so again, angel, thank you so much for being with us today, a commitment to diversity, equity of resources, adequate school funding, and a feeling of belonging. These things don't just happen. They require commitment and pressure pressure to change policies that promote inequity and pressure to implement policies that works with alleviate inequity and the best way to apply that pressure is to vote.
Speaker 0 00:14:49 I want to thank my guests angel for, with us today. Show notes and resources for this conversation are available on our website at www just like me, presents.com. Share this podcast with other parents and educators in your circle hit subscribe. So you never miss an episode and leave us a five star review. So other people can find this, this episode wraps up season two. I can't, we have done two seasons already. We are hard at work prepping for season three, but for the next few weeks, we will be on a mini hiatus while we work to bring you more valuable content. I say mini hiatus, because the next two episodes won't be our typical 30 minute length. But you know, we, aren't going to leave you without some type of culturally relevant content, have a great week. And remember if our children can see it, they can achieve it.
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