Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, my conscious and inquisitive tribe and welcome to revoke rewriting our kids education podcast. My name is Michelle person, and I welcome you on our journey of rethinking re-examining and re-educating ourselves and our children. We have spent a lot of time this season discussing what happens in the school and what instruction should look like today. We are going to explore a different type of school and how they approach instructing Scotland's. Last season, we spoke to Ariel Hayes, the principal of a Montessori school, and discuss how that framework compared to a traditional public school. Today. Our guest is the Nisha Diller executive principal at lake Erie, college prep and east academy school in Cleveland, Ohio, both of the schools, she oversees our charters. And today she is going to explain what that really means during my career. I have taught in charter and traditional schools. I have helped to both found a charter school and I've been the principal of both. So I personally have my own opinions about charter schools, and that is why I love this quote by Marshall Fritz, the American libertarian activist charter schools are public schools on a slightly long release. A dog on a leash is still a dog on a leash. I personally am tired of being on a leash, but that's a topic for another show and oh yeah. Are you
Speaker 0 00:01:55 What is a charter school and how did they come to be? I'll give you the cliff notes version around 1988, a professor at the university of Massachusetts Amherst came up with the idea of establishing schools of choice. The goal was to create a legally and financially autonomous school without tuition, religious affiliation or selective student admissions, that would operate more like a private business free from many of the state laws and district regulations that traditional schools are required to comply with. But that would also be more accountable for student outcomes. Minnesota was the first state to pass a charter school law in 1991. As of the date of this recording, 45 states have charter school laws on the books and the media charter schools have been accused of having less qualified teachers for children, treating special education children differently and having a tendency to poach the best students from certain districts, all the bad press that exists, and yet charter schools still exist.
Speaker 0 00:03:01 And that is because proponents of the schools love the small community feel increased flexibility, and the special focuses that an individual school might have. Like I said, I've had extensive experience with both and I can tell you that there is true to both sides. Our guest today has been a leader in the charter role for over a decade, and she knows the ins and outs better than most. And she is here with us today to see if the charter option is right for you. Diller, thank you so much for being here with us today. Thank you
Speaker 2 00:03:35 For having
Speaker 0 00:03:35 Me, you know, we couldn't, we could not do a school about charters and not have you on the show. Give us a little bit of background. Tell us a little bit about your, you know, how you came to be where you are right now in your career and what makes you an authority to talk on this subject?
Speaker 2 00:03:51 Well, uh, if you take it all the way back, you couldn't have told me in high school that I would end up being an educator, let alone someone's principles. So I find, uh, joy and looking back on that, uh, education is my second career. So my first career was definitely in business for many, many years, but all of my mentors, you know, to the person, they're all educators and they all said, you know, for years you're misplaced, you're misplaced. You need to be in a different field. And so I started looking into it and I started subbing to see how I liked it and went back to school and took a few more courses. And lo and behold, this is almost 12 years later. I went from middle school ELA to AP, to a director for a very, very short time period, uh, to principal. So this has been about 12 years in the making, um, to see students that came to me as fifth graders or sixth graders graduating from college with families and coming back to me for references for working in the field. Uh, that's what it's about. It gives me a sense of fulfillment. So
Speaker 0 00:05:01 Awesome. So you are, and now most of your 12 years you have been almost primarily in the charter world, correct?
Speaker 2 00:05:08 Yes. I did a very, very brief stint and public and it was not for me. Um, and I landed in the charter world and I saw a group of rebels. So I, uh, I went with it
Speaker 0 00:05:21 And that's why I wanted you to come on because I've done both. I've done. Um, I've done, uh, public and I've done charter and I wanted somebody who, um, who not only was in it, but who loved it because I can be a being as a, I guess you could say, I'm kind of reporter when you're presenting information. I have biases. Like I, I left charter for very specific reasons. Um, and honestly I've now left public for various specific reasons, um, because neither one of them is perfect. Um, they, they are both frustratingly ridiculous. Um, but, um, I wanted somebody who was in charter right now, um, and, and chose to be there. So that's why I wanted to reach out and have speak. Um, so can you tell the first off we keep throwing around these terms, uh, charter school, public school, um, and for those who are uninitiated, what is the difference, uh, in your opinion, between a public school and a public charter school
Speaker 2 00:06:22 And the public charter? Well, first we have about 3 million students, um, across the us that attend a public charter school. Forgive me, I'll take these bangles off. So they don't keep clacking public charter schools. So that's about 6% of the total students that are available to attend, uh, school. Uh, charters are tuition free. Um, they're open to all students. Uh, they follow the same state and academic and financial accountability standards that you will find, um, in a public district. We were talking earlier about kind of when this thing began in about 19 91, 19 92, um, the whole push for education choice and something different to offer to the student population came about and charters where the charter movement was birthed. Um, so unlike traditional public schools, charters are ran independently from the school district. So while whatever city you live in has a main school district, you may find some independent schools that aren't a part of that district that are either going to be private or probably a public charter school.
Speaker 2 00:07:32 Um, they operate under performance contracts that are with authorizers and those authorizers could be the districts. It could be the state, it could be some other appointed and approved entity that holds them accountable. And if they fail, uh, at any point of those accountability checks, they run the risk of being shut down or sanctioned or put on some form of, uh, improvement. So in exchange for a little more autonomy, I guess, than maybe a traditional public school, they get more flexibility to shape their classrooms and their school communities to fit the need of their specific demographic of students. So I think that's kind of the main difference for me. Am I
Speaker 0 00:08:17 Okay. So I'll tell you what I think the main difference is that one of the things that people very often say inaccurately for me, having been a leader of both charters run on a shoestring budget, a lot of times and public schools is where the money is. Um, right. And, and the, the, the common misconception out there is that charters have all this money and they're stealing these kids. It's like, no, these charters are being run in best case scenarios by people who really want to educate children differently. And they believe in a specific method or an ideal, and they want to be able to implement that method or ideal without a lot of the bureaucracy that comes from public traditional public systems. Like, you know, the, the story I tell what time is, um, I want to take my kids on a field trip at my very first school, public schools, Newark, New Jersey and the levels we want it to go to the park.
Speaker 0 00:09:18 And the levels of bureaucracy that were involved in taking my kids to the park was insane. A charter school. You want to go to the park? Here's the form, how the parents sign it, go to the park, like back to the park. That's the difference between, um, the difference between a, my opinion, a charter and a traditional public school. There is a lot more when you talk about that freedom, that's that freedom that, that you get to experience and see how however you guys do not. I think it's a total misconception that you guys are just stealing money from the big districts, or, you know, you guys have,
Speaker 2 00:09:55 We operate either in some cases, depending on the state, um, with half the budget that you would give to public. But in most cases, it's a quarter of the budget. In most cases, it's a quarter of the budget that is afforded, uh, to most, you know, traditional public schools. Um, and if you talk about, you know, fairness or unfairness, we're set, we're held to the same accountable, you know, accountabilities, we have to do the exact same thing. Um, that makes it a little hard. But if you have that rebel mindset, that activist mindset and you educate by any means necessary, then you know, let's take COVID for instance, pre COVID most in the charter world, didn't have all of the bells and whistles and technology, and, you know, one-to-one technology, COVID kind of lifted up the skirt a little bit on education and the, um, inequalities in education. And because of that, um, for the schools in the area that I serve, we now are almost one-to-one. And that was unheard of just just two years ago. Um, and that's normal course in most districts that you get one-to-one
Speaker 0 00:11:10 Whereabouts at 100% and go off the rails. Cause that's one of my common, my common misconception is that forget even charter public. Um, and we're about to go into a whole different show. There is suburban, and then there's urban transparency dimension. I used to lead in the same city. Um, and I taught on one side of the city, or rather I led a building on one side of the city Dinetia that led to building on another side of the city. Um, and, but my building was a, uh, an urban public school. And just like we had no technology, we couldn't, I every year asked for money for a new technology. I had 400 kids, I had 75 computers. We had to take turns, trying to get these testing online was a hot mess and, you know, COVID hit. And we had to, um, we had to very quietly, um, when they said, oh, give the computers to the parents. I got 400 families and 75 computers. So I had to very quietly reach out to people who were deemed most important, first of all, and give them computers first and then give out the rest of my computers and then had, but what happened was then the government gave money, then everybody got money. So the thing, because of COVID the things that my building had been asking for, for, for, I've been advocating for my children for four years, trying to get them access to computers. COVID happened, everybody got computers,
Speaker 2 00:12:41 He got them, it, it really leveled the playing field, but then it showcased a different part of the playing field. And that it peaked into the families households a little more because although you gave them this brand new Chromebook or this brand new, no laptop or tablet, families didn't have access to the internet. So that created, you know, another social need that the schools had to step in. It didn't matter what school, public, private charter, they have to step in to figure out what can we link with some community organization to provide, you know, internet service to the families because we've given them the computer, but unless they're sitting in a McDonald's parking lot that is closed now because of COVID, it doesn't work.
Speaker 0 00:13:24 Yeah. So, well, okay. So get back on topic. Cause I mean, I'm telling you educated that this is why I love this podcast because, um, you can go education, you start down one street and then you take a left turn and you can end up on a whole different street because that's just how topsy-turvy the world is. Um, but we were talking about the fact that, um, there are some major differences between charters and traditional public schools. The main thing being in a charter school, you have a little bit more freedom to decide how you want to educate the kids. However, you are a little bit more financially constrained with what you can do in terms of what you can provide. So my question is then in your opinion, why should a parent consider, why would a parent consider, uh, a school that might have less funding to be able to support my student, um, versus the school down the street, which has more, more funding, more resources. So why should I, as a parent consider a charter school, um, that might not be able to, that might not have all the resources that you know, the school down the street does.
Speaker 2 00:14:25 So let me preface this by saying more tech does not make a better educator. So because you have, you know, an led light show in your science classroom does not in fact make you a good science teacher. Um, so I actually believe that parents need to weigh the options that are available to them. Um, depending on their geographical area, they probably have all three public private or charter, you know, available to them. And all three are probably going to offer something different. Um, local charters, I found have a more smaller school feel. Some parents are attracted to that. You know, that it's not 1200, you know, 1500 kids in the building. This school only has three to 400 students. Um, and that pushes a more family like, uh, atmosphere here, especially if the kid stays and matriculates through the system that whole school knows you're a baby. And so it's a little different to say, I know Ms. Such and such, because, you know, she was my first grade teacher and I'm a sixth grade kid now, you know? Um, so that sense of familiarity of the village, the village mindset, I think maybe an attractive push for some families.
Speaker 0 00:15:42 There are some other negative connotations or perceptions that are out there. And I want you to, I'm going to, I'm going to name off a couple and I just want you to speak to them. Um, so there's the first one is that charter schools are not as academically rigorous. Um, people, all, they, they go to that charter school. They don't, they don't do real work over there. Uh, what, what would you say to someone who said, well, I would say they should duck. And they said that to you, but if so, what would you say to someone who came and that was their opinion of, uh, the level of academic, uh, rigidness at a charter school?
Speaker 2 00:16:21 Well, a, I will caution that person against painting, uh, are all charter schools with the same question. Um, charter schools, aren't, they aren't a monolith. They all operate differently according to whatever their mission or vision statement is that they put out to their, their stakeholders. I've found that many charter schools hold their respective student body to a high academic standard. Uh, not to say that your public counterparts don't, but because of how the charters are built, because it is a small school field, these are the expectations. And we're going to get you to these expectations. You may come in two grades behind, um, reading level wise or math wise, but by the time you finish, you know, with say at school, you should either be on level or gaining a half a year to a year each time as you work your way through that program.
Speaker 2 00:17:16 And not to say that public doesn't care, but it, you have to search a little harder to find the teachers within public who would put that time in, because they're so stressed with what they have going on. So our all charters perfect. I don't think any school is perfect. Um, and they, their need, they need their feet to the fire. If they are not having high academic standards where your babies cause your, your children deserve that. So go visit them, go, go check them out. The ones I have been associated with, we have high academic standards
Speaker 0 00:17:55 And I can vouch for that. I know that they do. Um, what about the other common misconception that not all students are welcome at charters, specifically students with learning disabilities, um, you know, the, the very, the very, very fun, true, um, uh, thing that people often say is that, oh, well, they won't take this kid because they have this or they don't, they don't deal with, you know, they're not required to take children with, uh, with, um, with learning special learning needs. I could answer that question, but I'm going to let you answer that question.
Speaker 2 00:18:29 Well, help me, cause I may, I may miss misquote this, but public charters kind of have to function like a public school. So we can't public charters can't turn away, you know, turn away a student. Um, they, they ha they are held to the same, the same accountabilities. Again, this is doing your research. So if it's a student with disabilities, um, public charters, the reason I think families may swing their way, um, they may not like that their child in a public setting or a public school setting is, you know, in an enclosed, you know, teaching model and most charters, uh, public charters do offer where that kid is put in with the general population and educated right alongside their peers, and that then they kick into targeted intervention pullouts with small group instruction. So they find different ways to educate that child without segregating that child. So some families may find that to be up to be a plus, but a public charter can't tell you.
Speaker 0 00:19:36 And that is 100% accurate of public ed. A public charter school can not say that a child can not come. What I do, caution families a lot is. However, sometimes I need you to understand that sometimes the public, the public school might, depending on the needs of your students might actually be the best place for your child with special needs. Um, you might want a school, you know, you've heard great things about it and you think your child will do well there, but if your child has significant, um, uh, you know, and just being 100%, we just, the first thing we talked about was that they run on a much stricter budget. So a lot of the reasons that you might have at a traditional public school, you might not have or find at a, um, they have to be creative. They have to do that rebel, you know, that, that different type of thinking, and that might not fit the needs of your baby. Um, so like, uh, like Denise was saying, definitely should be doing your homework, figuring out what works for you when you're a scholar. And it's not that your kid would not be able to attend. It is simply that that school might not be able to offer the resources that you are used to getting at your traditional public school. So,
Speaker 2 00:20:43 Absolutely. That's it, that's it in a nutshell.
Speaker 0 00:20:47 So, yeah, I think that that's the perfect way to sum that one up. Um, now one of the things that has become, like we were, again, talking before, uh, before we got on and the doing my research, um, 91 92 was when charter schools kind of started by someone. Um, the idea was proposed by a professor at the university of Massachusetts Amherst. I believe it was. And, um, you know, it was an idea of being able to run a school and more like a business and circumvent the bureaucracy, which is what we've talked about here today. But I think an unintended consequence of that was that more than they anticipated black and brown children, flocking to these schools than were originally anticipated. Like these were actually, these schools were not originally cultivated for black and brown children. They were called to circumvent, you know, whatever, whatever issue that the stay at home moms were, were having with the school district that they were in. And they wanted, you know, more, more of one type of teaching strategy or they wanted more this or more that they want it to. So they were like, well, we're going to circumvent the system and we're going to create our own teaching model. We're going to do it our own way. What actually has happened is that charters have flourished in black and brown communities. Um, why do you think that is? Well, she takes a, as she takes a sip of her,
Speaker 2 00:22:23 Um, you have to look at where they were allowed to place charters. Um, and originally charters were only allowed to be put in disadvantaged communities. Um, and so, because they were put in disadvantaged communities, it netted them a certain demographic, you know, um, over time parent choice has probably played much more of a part in that, but originally you thought influx of black and brown students, because it wasn't a black and brown neighborhood, you know, and parents for whatever their reasons were, didn't want their babies going to the public school, either for safety reasons that were cited, or they just wanted their key and not to get lost in the shuffle of, you know, of going to school. Um, it's a smaller overall school size, sometimes not always a smaller class size, but overall school size. It is a smaller school size. The staff gets to better know their, you know, the babies in the building. And so again, it was unintended, it was unintended, but intended. I think, I think you put it, you put a school on, on 40th in Cleveland. What kid do you think you're going to get?
Speaker 0 00:23:38 Yeah, I think what happened in very was they, and again, I'm speaking off the cuff right now. I actually not read, but I think what actually happened. Um, and it, it makes sense, um, is that the idea was for one group of people to be able to circumvent, but then in practice that same group of people said, Hmm, we're not going to experiment with our kids. Um, and so they were like, what's the concept. We should try it out somewhere and guess where they tried it out. Um, so, and then now, so again, so that point, there have been some various, I've worked at several very successful charter schools. Um, you know, I, I am all the time. You hear me? I love kids. The knowledge is power program. It's nationwide. It, I I've worked at two different schools. I helped bowel one. I love, love, love KIPP.
Speaker 0 00:24:26 Um, for the longest time I said, if I was ever going to go back to charter, it would only be at a kid's school. They are, I love their program. Um, but, um, you know, but that, that is one version of a charter and that's not all versions of charters and every one is different because you do have that autonomy. But I would venture to say it back to the point is 100%. That's what I think happened. I think that it was a great concept, but then when people wanted to put it into practice, the places where they wanted to put it into practice, we're like, no, no, no, not here. And so people went and they put it, they tried, they put the, like you said, they put the schools where they were allowed to. And that happens to be, and traditionally underserved neighborhoods.
Speaker 2 00:25:08 Here's, what's going to be interesting because charter schools have shown some positive gains in many states. Now having an open, uh, uh, I don't want to say open enrollment because that's not what I'm trying to go. They're not just held to the lowest performing demographic anymore. They're not geographically bound anymore. So I will be interested to see probably in as short as a five-year timeframe, charters are now allowed to open in more affluent areas. What will happen when that occurs?
Speaker 0 00:25:47 I guess it's all will happen because where you are. Um, in Cleveland, there's a suburb called Parma. Um, and Parma has a system within a system and I can speak to it because my children went to that system. The subsystem, there is a network of charter schools called constellation schools, and they historically only put their schools and they were very strategic about where they put their schools. They have great academic achievement records, but they are also, um, in, um, in areas with more fluent, more, um, more affluent families. And what they have honestly created in Parma, um, is a subculture culture where in the constellation schools and Parma Heights, all the white children go there, uh, the, the, the, um, the school department. Now, if you go to the actual public and Parma, what you'll see is parents not necessarily almost the exact opposite. They move out of Cleveland, into Palm Palm, a suburb.
Speaker 0 00:26:52 They moved out of Cleveland into thinking that they were getting a suburban education. So they're not considering a co uh, a charter because they're like, we're in this room is Sebastian now. So I don't need to put my kids in the charter. Whereas the white parents are like, well, I need another option to get my kids out of this school. And they are, and that option has been constellation charters, and they are primarily, um, you know, very, very white. Um, and again, I say this because my children went there, um, because for, you know, at the time, most of the decisions I made, because I was living in that area. Um, and, and that was, and I wanted the charter experience. I wanted the small, I wanted the, I wanted all the other things she was saying, and that was the option available to me.
Speaker 0 00:27:37 So that's where my children went. Um, so it has been a interesting experience because Parma has begun to fight back because they, it does remove some funding, um, from, you know, from their schools. And they are feeling the crunch in terms of their state funding, not their local, because their local is unaffected because the Carter's don't get local funding, but their state funding is effective because there, there effectively is an entire sub-district operating within there. And they're a very large district, so it has become to hit them in their pockets. And so they had begun to, it's interesting to watch that would be definitely an area to watch in the upcoming months and years to see how it plays out, because that's exactly what they're doing in Parma. Um, interesting. Brought that up. So, um, but I guess my, my, I got to wrap this up, um, and I hope that everybody listening was able to get some understanding of, of what a charter is now, how it's different, um, dispel some of the, um, the, the fallacies in terms of, you know, what people say about charters versus what charters will be do, um, and your opinion that he should just to wrap it all up is what place do you see charters as having, as we move forward in education?
Speaker 0 00:28:56 Is there still a play, like, was it a grand experiment whose time has come and it's time to let it go? Or is there still a place for charter schools? Um, in traditional education,
Speaker 2 00:29:06 I believe, uh, with parent choice, there's always going to be a place. Um, I believe there are enough children to go around between the three different educational models, charter, public, and private. Um, and as long as there are disagreements with how a child is educated in one system versus another is going to involve moving those kids around, you know, almost like chess pieces. Um, so I think charter is here to stay. I think that, uh, the autonomy that they have been able to work through may start to come to an end a little more because they're starting to gain more eyes on them. Um, so I think that you'll see that kind of change up, I think, um, because they're demanding a bigger piece of the pie now, you know, here are the results, so we should get more than the quarter, you know, can we at least get 35%, 45%? Um, but with, you know, more pine, you know, you got a bigger belly eight, so we'll see where that, where that goes in the future. But I definitely think that the whole charter movement, uh, is here to stay.
Speaker 0 00:30:18 Yeah. Well, I thank you so much for being here with us today. Parents, if you are interested in charters in your area, just do a quick Google search, I think, and, um, and see what comes up because it's definitely an option that I think that is worth exploring. Well, what do you think is a charter school, an option for your family? I encourage you to continue to do some research for yourself before you decide. Thanks again to our guests and Nisha Dillard. And thank you for listening. Show notes and resources to everything we've talked about today are available on our website. Just like me presents that com share this podcast with other educators in your circle and be sure to hit subscribe. So you never miss an episode next week, diversity and higher education. What does it look like and why is it important that we advocate for it? Thanks again for listening. And remember if our children can see it, they can achieve it.
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