Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, good people and welcome to Rew rewriting our Kids' Education podcast. My name is Michelle Person, and we are on a journey. We are rethinking, reexamining, and reeducating ourselves and our children. On today's episode, we are going to revisit one of my favorite topics being woke at work. It's one of my favorite topics to discuss because I know many of us being in predominantly white workspaces can relate to it and often have difficulty navigating those spaces. Unfortunately, in many regards, the culture and cliques that are found in these spaces can be reminiscent of school. And if we're gonna teach our children to advocate for themselves, we need to make sure we're advocating for ourselves as well and teaching them how to create these spaces. In the next 20 years, it's anticipated that minorities will make up the majority of the workforce. What steps need to be taken now? So organizations are inclusive, places that value the input of everyone and, oh yeah, are you woke?
Speaker 0 00:01:27 My favorite commercials are the Snickers commercials where someone is complaining until they eat Snickers, and then they magically turn into someone different. You're not the same person when you're hungry. You are also not the same person when you're emotionally drained and nothing can drain you faster than getting up every morning and going to a job you hate. What can we do to create spaces that make us feel included so we can be in the right emotional space to give our all to our chosen career and still have something left over for our children when we get home? Our guest today, Erica Hines, specializes in working with organizations who care about their social impact and building systematic approaches to building strong teams. Erica is a lead consultant with every level leadership, and she is here today to share her thoughts. Erica, thank you so much for being with us today. I cannot wait to hear all the interesting things you have to tell us.
Speaker 2 00:02:22 Thank you for having me. I'm excited to have this conversation in, um, in a new context that I think is important.
Speaker 0 00:02:31 Before we jump right in, I always like people to understand why I picked the people that I'm speaking to, why, why they were chosen to speak on this topic. So can you give, um, our listeners a little bit of background about what it is, how your, the work that you do, how you came to do this work, so everybody understands why you are the person to, to be giving us advice about how to cultivate, um, culturally responsive workplaces?
Speaker 2 00:02:54 Yes, sure. So, um, I own a business called Every Level Leadership and doing that work, I focus on, um, helping organization. I like to say that I help organizations align the commitments that they have made to diversity, equity, and inclusion with the next best right actions. Um, and so I call myself a D E I practitioner mm-hmm. <affirmative> with, um, an expertise really around racial equity, um, as well as I'm becoming a burgeoning research researcher on how black women can thrive in the workplace.
Speaker 0 00:03:36 Can you tell us what does that, okay, so what does it mean then? I mean, that's what you do. All your work is centered around making sure workplaces are diverse, that they're equitable. Um, so if, if you are lucky enough to, to be someone who works in what we call a woke work environment, um, what does that mean? What does it mean to have a, a workplace that wouldn't need your services? What does that mean?
Speaker 2 00:04:02 Oh, well, that would be an organization where, um, you had in place just organization wide, you would have in place race equity, meaning all of your policies, all of your practices, your folks would be skilled up so that they would've had rooted out most symptoms and causes of racism inside of the organization.
Speaker 0 00:04:37 That sounds beautiful. It sounds heavenly. Um, what would people, if you were, if you were experiencing that, if you're at a work, if you're in a work environment and that's where your organization is, what does that feel like? How do you know that you're in that, that safe space?
Speaker 2 00:04:54 Yeah, so you would, you would have senior leaders and managers that were able to manage you from a place of being, I like to say culturally literate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, who would understand their biases, their unconscious biases, and how those impact their decision making. So, so for example, you would have, you would be able to raise concerns about things that were happening to work, to things that were happening at work that might have to do with your race or gender, um, or other aspects of your, um, uh, identity. And not only would your manager be able to like hear this, they would also feel as though they could, um, help you. They could mentor you and help you figure out what's like, would be the appropriate action to take. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, also in terms of the manager and leader, they would also be, um, when you brought up something that was like larger than like, Hey, Erica and Michelle have an issue, but it's more like this, this, the promotion policy you hear only rewards, um, white women mm-hmm. <affirmative>, for example. And if you brought that up, they would be like, let's investigate that. And then two, they would also be thinking to themselves in, um, I'm really glad that Erica brought this to me instead of what is likely to happen now, which is that they would be glad that they, that you brought it to them, but they would also maybe consider you to be a bit of a troublemaker. Mm-hmm. Cause you're causing them extra work.
Speaker 0 00:06:51 Gotcha. Gotcha. I had a, uh, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I had a friend, um, explain it to me. We were talking, having a conversation a while ago, and the way they explained it, um, she's Indian, um, and I dunno if the proper term is Indian American at this point, like she was born in India, but she lives here, she and her husband, um, and one of their high holy days, uh, is the wali. So, you know, understanding, understanding that, um, although she and and her organization, it is not, they, most of them can't even say the word properly. Um, but understanding that that is a high holy day for them mm-hmm. <affirmative> or, you know, or, or a a, a celebration much in the way that we celebrate, um, you know, Christmas or, um, hauk. Yeah, yeah. You know, so, so under being able to go to leadership and say, Hey, my family is, is, we'll be celebrating DUI on these days.
Speaker 0 00:07:41 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> I'll, I would like to request a time off, or, or, or, uh, in another way, she's also a mom. Um, and so we were talking about just the struggles of being, being a mom and, and, and having, having our work hours looked at in the amount of time that we put in, be looked at than our, differently than our male counterparts. Because though we might have to leave at six or, or at five because we have children to go home and tend to, that doesn't mean that we can't work, just we can't reality that, that we can't still do the same workload. Um, you know, but it be look and be appreciated. Even if we're clocking out physically, we might not really be clocking out. And so making sure that, um, that the administration is taking those things into consideration. Like, we can't expect a seven o'clock evening workday because, but that doesn't mean that, you know, we can't make accommodation so that everybody can be successful.
Speaker 0 00:08:36 Like, we have to recognize that not everybody celebrates the, the, the 11 federally recognized holidays. And so we have to make provisions so that our, our people can come to us and say, this is what we're doing. How can we, how can you know you support me? Um, so that yeah, that, that like a, so in, in a work, in a woke work environment, somebody would go with those concerns and they would be heard and a environment that would need your assistance, I'm assuming they would go to, they would, they would voice those concerns and they would be pushed to the side.
Speaker 2 00:09:08 Yes. Yes. That is what is likely to happen. Um, and I think just using this example of Dewali mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, I think in a woke environment you would actually have, there would be no such thing as like, the only holidays that are recognized are Christian mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, or Jewish holidays. It would just be a series of floating holidays.
Speaker 0 00:09:34 Oh, I like that. So everybody can pick what days worked for them in terms of
Speaker 2 00:09:39 Exactly
Speaker 0 00:09:40 That. And there you go. And that, and it's that simple. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but like, it's like that mind blowing for some people. Like, what do you mean? You know? Um, so I, I love that, that, and that's a simple thing to fix. That's a, so I guess that actually leads into my next question. If these things to do are sim are as simple as saying, everybody gets a loving floating holidays, use those 11 floating holidays as you see fit, if that's all it takes to be woke, why aren't more environments like, like how do you, how do you create these, these environments, these utopias where people feel
Speaker 2 00:10:15 Like,
Speaker 0 00:10:16 Why, why is this so hard, Erica? Like, why, what do we do? How do we create these spaces?
Speaker 2 00:10:21 Oh my gosh. Okay. You wanna, you want a simple answer to that <laugh>? Um, so, so let's continue to work with the metaphor of the floating holidays, right? So the reason that it's so hard is because the sort of accepted religion, accepted religions that we have sort of constantly recognized have been Christian and Jewish mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and the idea, and so like, that's accepted and the Jewish one is fairly new. So it's like, what is the norm here? Like the norm is to be like, of course, like everybody gets off Christmas and everybody gets off, um, Easter because like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that is the pervasive religion in this country. However, in a diverse culture that we live in, not everybody's fitting into that like norm, that little, that little, uh, you know, cake tin, like we all have to fit in there and be like, yes, we're, we, we can only operate on that schedule. So it takes lot and have people have feelings about what do we're not gonna recognize, uh, you know, Easter and Christmas, and now people can choose what they want. People have feelings about that. There's also like manager and leader level, they'll, so we have 11 federally recognized holidays. I can tell you going through the minds of managers and leaders is like, well, what if Michelle decides to take all of those 11 holidays as two weeks of vacation?
Speaker 0 00:12:06 You've gotta think, like, sometimes, you know, you've gotta think like, I, I, being a former principal, like sometimes the, the people that my kid, my my teachers would come and say, can we do this? And part of me wants to be like, sure, but then the other part of me has to play devil's advocate and know that there's somebody who's not gonna use it the way it's intended. So I get that, I get that, but
Speaker 2 00:12:29 It's not impossible to deal with the someone not using it as intended. Like that's, that's like 1% versus the 99%, right. Of hey, it would be nice for Dewali. Um, which, you know, is based upon both my religion, but also like my ethnicity to not have to take vacation for that.
Speaker 0 00:12:51 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So
Speaker 2 00:12:56 I think it's like, in that case, it, the reason that it's hard is also it would mean that you would have to change a policy.
Speaker 0 00:13:03 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:03 You're a leader. How easy is that to do?
Speaker 0 00:13:06 I tell people all the time, like when, when, um, I was in the throes of, um, like fighting with unions during the first, uh, during, uh, the end of Obama and then into Trump. And I would, I went on, I, when I would go on rants, like I feel, I feel Obama, like I can't just do what I want. Like people think principle, you can do what you want. That is not true. Like to people, I am a, I am a person who has to get the parents and the board and the teacher's union all in agreement so that we can create one cohesive decision and like move forward. My job is to persuade everybody to work together. I do not unilaterally get to make any decision. And, and so yes, I completely understand that. Um, <laugh>, because I lived it
Speaker 2 00:13:57 <laugh>. So it takes time, it takes work, it takes effort, and it takes resources. Yeah. And that's why we don't have utopia, because it is simple, but it's not easy.
Speaker 0 00:14:07 It's not easy. I get it. I get it. 100%. So, which perfect segue into the next question. What supports, what supports are necessary to make these transitions easier? Like what, what supports do people need to be able to, um, to be able to create these utopia or at least begin, um, create some, some foundation?
Speaker 2 00:14:30 Yeah, so first, well, it depends on where they're kinda entering into the process. So for, let's say that there's an organization that's like, yeah, we wanna have a floating holiday, but we literally have to like even convince our staff of like, why we need to have this and we have to convince our board of why we need to have this because they've never heard of Dewali. For them. I would be like, so, you know, we're gonna actually, we gotta do some training cuz y'all need to learn what words to use mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we need to talk about like why this is important. And then you need a little bit of, uh, and you know, I'm answering this as like a consultant. So then I would be like, and you need a little bit of coaching and like, let's prepare those conversations so that I can give you feedback. So like, the support that they need is like hand holding.
Speaker 0 00:15:21 Okay.
Speaker 2 00:15:21 Which is fine. So, um, so I think for that group, but if there's a group that's like, oh yeah, we're on board, we just need to see like a dewali policy or like a policy on floating holidays, not out dewali, uh, can you get that for us? That's another type of support, right? Mm-hmm.
Speaker 0 00:15:40 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it sounds like you need to go in. So what happens, what needs to happen probably is assessments to figure out where each company is, go in and assess where they're, and then meet them where they are. Which is, is very similar to what we, what we would love to do as teachers is to assess each of our students. And instead of applying unrealistic expectations, like you don't want a company who has people who don't even know the, the understanding of the, the right words to use. Cuz you're gonna offend somebody, everybody's gonna get mad, you're gonna have a lawsuit. So you don't want to try to force them to a level that they're not quite ready for. You don't take a kindergartner and say, here are some multiplication tables. Um, you kinda have to stare step them up. So assess where they are and, and offer the appropriate level of support and, and just know where that, what that is. Whether it be training on how to speak about issues, whether that be a support surround, how to create e e equity policies. Um, but yeah. Okay. That, so everybody needs an assessment. Who pays for this assessment? How do we make everybody get these assessments?
Speaker 2 00:16:45 Well, they do.
Speaker 0 00:16:48 Well why? Costs costs money.
Speaker 2 00:16:53 It costs money.
Speaker 2 00:16:55 Well, most of them do. They're actually free assessments. There are decent free assessments that are diy. What I always think though is that, you know, in terms of these assessments and whether or not like a workplace wants to do an assessment, my question to them is, let's say you do do it on your own and you get a set of results. Do you know what to do when you get those set of results? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? Um, that's where a person like me could be helpful because I could be like, oh, it says this. Here's what you should be doing. Here's, here's a possible next step. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I think the other piece that organizations need to be aware of, and this is, I mean, I work across sectors. So the one thing that I know to be true, and you probably encountered this as a principal, is even though people are, um, are bought, bought into the idea of the work that you were doing, naturally humans will resist something that means that they have to change their own status quo.
Speaker 0 00:17:58 Absolutely. Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:18:00 So I often, I tell like all of my clients, yes, here's how that work is gonna get laid out. I want you to know that some point you're going to resist me and you're gonna resist this work. And I just wanna say it upfront so when it happens and I'm able to like say it, it'll not be new to you.
Speaker 0 00:18:20 Right. Right.
Speaker 2 00:18:21 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Cause I anticipate it
Speaker 0 00:18:23 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right, right. So you have to and, and be ready for it and be able to support it appropriately. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, so I guess what are, if if it's, if it's hard work, it's simple but not easy. Yeah. It's, it, it does require some resources and perhaps the financial investment, um, immediately I can hear people going like, well, why would I do that? Like, what, what, what, what's in it for me? Why would I, why would I invest all that time? That energy and that money? Like, why? So can you speak to that? Like what, what are the major benefits to having a workplace that, um, that is supportive, that does value, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion. What are, what, why, why should people take the time to do this?
Speaker 2 00:19:05 Um, well it's interesting that we're talking because these children that you are working with today are going to be in the workforce mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, the demographics are that we are going to be a majority, um, minority population in maybe 18 to 20 years. Yeah. So for any workplace, anywhere, to not consider doing work around how they become more diverse, inclusive, and equitable means that they will be, um, obsolete.
Speaker 0 00:19:42 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:43 They'll be ob
Speaker 0 00:19:43 Ob blockbuster.
Speaker 2 00:19:45 Exactly. So it's not something that is a need or nice to do anymore. Like, oh, let's make everyone feel like they're included. It's like, no, this is a need to do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, first of all, we already have globe. I mean, we already have, if we work in a large enough company, our company already works like overseas and, and or our company works here in the United States, which is like, uh, a, you know, a mixed salad, right. Of folks. Right. So why wouldn't you wanna do, like why wouldn't you want your own workplace here, based here in the US to be someplace where everybody from every dimension of diversity feels comfortable, but more importantly, if you go work for a larger corporation, they're across the world for you to be like, you know what? I live in Raleigh, North Carolina and I only understand what happens in the southeast. Right. Or I live in Ohio and I only understand what happens in the Midwest that makes you like a lot less of, um, what's the word I'm thinking of? Like, my desire to hire you goes down really quickly. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's why you should invest in it because, and also on the other end,
Speaker 0 00:21:04 It makes you more profitable,
Speaker 2 00:21:06 It makes you more profitable. And also Gen Z and you know, the kids, I don't even know what they call the generations after Gen Z. I don't these, these young people and I can say that now I'm, um, is an expectation for them.
Speaker 0 00:21:29 Mm. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:21:30 <affirmative>, this is an expectation in this workforce Yeah. For them. And they're like, you're not gonna accept me for everything that I am gonna
Speaker 0 00:21:39 Need to work here. I, I'll I will take my talents to, I will what LeBron's thing. I will take my talents to Miami if, if you're not going to, um, you're not going to respect who I am as a person and my beliefs and Yep. So it makes sense. So it's what, and unfortunately I feel like it's gonna be one of those things where I know people now in education, and I know I liken everything education, cuz that's my background. When Charter started, um, you know, people fought them. They, they didn't want to give them a time of day. They, they spent money and hours advocating and giving reasons for why people should not be allowed to start charters. Um, and why they were unconstitutional. And the bottom line is all that money they wasted fighting. I tell the story all the time. I, I worked at a very large district that had all over 80,000 kids in it.
Speaker 0 00:22:26 And the district within, within, within 10 years of the introduction of charters, the enrollment in the district was down to 40. Not cause 40,000 thousand children moved outta that district because 40,000 children decided to lead the public school district and go to the charter district. And you know what happened when those little kids left? They took all their money with them. And so then finally somebody said, maybe we should stop fighting this and invest in the things that these charters are doing that these, that is appealing to these families. Exactly. So that we can maintain. Cause at that point, what was happening is they spent all this money fighting the charter Revolution, and then they were having to close schools so people were losing their jobs and they weren't, you know, these things because they wanted to, because they wanted, they didn't, they didn't pivot.
Speaker 0 00:23:14 You have to pivot. And so it sounds like these, if you, if you are a leader at a company and your, and your company is not as diverse and inclusive as you would like it to be, I hope you heard what Erica said. Now is the time because the people that are coming up in the next 10 to 15 years are going to demand it and you will go the way of Blockbuster. Um, yeah. You know, if you do not make this pivot. So, uh, or like my district who is now scrambling, trying to renovate the schools that are left to bring kids back. So my question then, Erica, is if someone is interested in, in bringing about the change sooner rather than later, because they, they know that some of them are probably sitting there listening going, what's a blockbuster <laugh>? Um, so <laugh>, so if you, if you sat there and you listen to me just talk now, and you're like, what's a blockbuster? Or you're like, oh yeah, I remember Blockbuster. Is
Speaker 2 00:24:05 She googling that?
Speaker 0 00:24:06 Yeah. So if you, if you're doing that, then you really should be like, then what you need to understand is, um, that your, you and your company should be reaching out to Erica and her company to figure out how to make sure you pivot and are ready for these changes. So how should, what re what suggestions do you have? How can people reach you, um, if they're looking to, to, to incorporate this type of information into their workforce?
Speaker 2 00:24:31 Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Can I, can I say something directly to, I'm assuming that one of your, like one part of your audience is parents.
Speaker 0 00:24:40 Absolutely. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 2 00:24:42 So I would like to say to parents, please, please encourage your kids to expect this.
Speaker 0 00:24:49 Hmm.
Speaker 2 00:24:49 Please don't tell them like, oh, when you get there, you have to go along to get along. Like the work that I'm doing, and this is like part of my, like, feeling it in my heart. Like one of the reasons that I do this work is because I, I am committed to social change and this is how I view my commitment to social change, but I'm not changing it for myself. Right. Right. I'm changing it for your kids. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. That's why I'm out here pushing, yelling, having people push back at me. So for parents, I'm like, don't, don't tell your children not to expect this. They need to expect it. Right. Right. And they need to ask for it. And they need it actually. And they need Exactly. And they need to demand it. And frankly, that should be starting now in school.
Speaker 0 00:25:44 Yes. Yes. And that, and that, that's exactly what, like our, our goal is to demand that our kids are taught mm-hmm. <affirmative>, culturally responsive curriculum. I, I mean that's the, the, the whole reason this season took so long to put together is because it, the, I was shouting at the top of my lungs and it wasn't happening fast enough. So I said, I'm gonna start my own school. And so like, you know, and starting my own school and doing the show, we had to, you know, the show production this season took a little bit longer. But because people, and you're right, either you're going to, you're either going to conform these companies or you're going find a mass exodus and people are gonna create their own mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So absolutely. Demand require it and make sure your children know that they, this is should be what's expected. Yes, absolutely. You
Speaker 2 00:26:27 Can reach out to me. Oh, I'm, I'm everywhere. Um, you can email me at my website, you can find me not on Twitter ever again. Um, you can find me on Instagram, you can find me a little bit on Facebook. Um, and, uh, my advice, you asked for my advice and if I can give just one piece of advice, I think it, to actually do your own work initially mm-hmm. <affirmative> around how you can show up as a more inclusive and equitable person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, just in your own relationships. Um, whether there's a professional relationships, pla relationships, romantic relationships, but like, uh, particularly in the workplace, like how I always say like it is important if you really say that you're committed to inclusion and equity. It's not just external to you, it's internal to you.
Speaker 0 00:27:30 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Speaker 2 00:27:30 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So how do you wanna show up as an inclusive individual who values everyone? How are you going to make sure that your actions and decisions that you're making further us all getting to an equitable, utopian place? So,
Speaker 0 00:27:48 Awesome. Well, I wanna thank you so much for taking time out today to talk to us. Um, everyone, if you are, uh, interested in bringing Erica or every level leadership into your organization, check the show notes for all of her information. Um, Erica, thank you so much. This was great.
Speaker 2 00:28:05 Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:28:08 Demand the change you want to see and teach your children to expect the same powerful stuff. Show notes of the things and resources discussed in this podcast are available on our website at www.justlikemepresents.com. Share this podcast with other parents and educators in your circle and be sure to hit subscribe so you never miss an episode. Thanks for listening this week. And remember, if our children can see it, they can achieve it.
