Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hey fam and welcome to rework rewriting our kids education podcast. My name is Michelle person and we are on a journey. We are rethinking reexamining and reeducating ourselves and our children. On today's episode, we will be talking about being woke at school. The school is truly committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. What does that look like? How do we hold schools accountable for doing this very important work? My guest today is Dr. Dominick Rollins, the director of diversity equity and inclusion at the Dalton school. And as a director, that is his job, making sure that this work gets done and he is going to share with us how they do it at the adults in school, in New York city. And how other institutions might start this very important work.
Speaker 0 00:01:20 Thank you so much for joining
Speaker 2 00:01:21 Us today. I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker 0 00:01:25 Well, first of all, it tell it, tell everybody who's watched. Describe your current work. What's your
Speaker 2 00:01:31 Absolutely. Um, so I serve as the chief diversity officer and like many organizations and schools, uh, there is a need to have a senior leadership position dedicated to holding an institutional accountable for being as diverse, equitable, inclusive, and I would say as anti-racist as possible. Um, and that means forwarding a vision for that work coming up with strategic initiatives to implement that work, um, and educating the community on what that means and what that looks like.
Speaker 0 00:02:05 Your, your job is in grades K through 12.
Speaker 2 00:02:09 It does, it serves the students K through 12, it serves faculty and staff. It serves the parents and families. It serves alum unfortunately, or fortunately it serves everybody.
Speaker 0 00:02:21 Well, then that kind of leads into my next question, which is what does that look like when you're working with five? How does it look when you're working with high schoolers? How does it look when you're working with staff? What does it look like when you work with parents? Like I'm sure the work looks different in every arena.
Speaker 2 00:02:38 It does. And let me first start by saying a way that it looks similar and in a way that it looks similar is that we all have needs what are needs to be realized in the places that we learn. We all have needs to be seen, heard, valued, and we want to have that done, had that need met in the communities, in which we work in the communities in which we learn. And I start there because, um, it's universal and yet how you would go about it. And what that means, for instance to a five-year-old is most certainly different than a veteran teacher, right there need to be heard and seen is evolving and they don't understand it fully for themselves. Um, but they have it and they Burt things out and they ask questions and they are incredibly animated as they discover the world. Our world has already indicated certain notions and assumptions about different five-year-olds. And so it's difficult for a five-year-old who is of color or five-year-old, who is emerging to become a gender non-conforming or a five-year-old who, who is not speaking English as their first language to have their needs met in a world that has obviously assumptions and stereotypes.
Speaker 2 00:04:10 Five-year-old, it's really like helping them to understand how do you actually talk about navigate name, identity, um, in how you interacting with one another, beyond that interaction with one another, what information are we giving you about who you are and how the world works?
Speaker 0 00:04:28 Because I've talked with a couple of liters and the work that we are all doing, trying to create more diverse and resonates across the board. I think that it's interesting that at that level elementary, 5, 6, 7, 8 years old is more is as we get older, it also kind of to be able to feel comfortable within ourselves having conversations. So I guess, do you find that as people get older, not only do they need in themselves push, um, but they have to be willing to push through to understand that they do hold some of those constraints and thought processes and frameworks that, you know, no fault of their own, you are a product of your environment. And so one of the things that I found in older people, um, that we have to work on is making them feel okay, saying things that they want to push down on that. Or if you're, if you're
Speaker 2 00:05:51 No, my experiences are consistent with that. And one reason that those ideas emerge is we go through our lives, collecting more information and experiencing a lot more dissonance, particularly when we are in a cultural minority, when we don't have our narratives reflected back to us, we are making sense of the world, uh, as outsider, there's only so much making sense of that, that you can do on your own internally. Um, and so this need to be able to have difficult conversations, I think arises from a need to be able to explicate what one's experience is that isn't necessarily consistent in the world because the world has been set up to evolve around one singular narratives and to really uphold power. And you don't understand that actually as a kid, partly because it's not, your reality often is not four or five-year-old. We can, to some extent, create a cocoon number reality that reflects them in ways that are really positive and reinforcing.
Speaker 2 00:06:59 And especially if we turn off the television, however, for a 15 year old, it's not possible, and this need to no longer just have voice, but also to be able to use voice and to use that voice to literally make utterances that are not the status quo I believe comes from is as a result of making sense of this. Isn't consistent for me, this isn't fair for me. This is how I see the world. And I need to be able to say that to other human beings who have a horror of consequence, right? Who are, who are either my parents or who are school teachers, or who are my peers. Uh, I need to see whether or not they have the same understanding that I have.
Speaker 0 00:07:54 I guess my next question is, as I'm listening to, where we need to improve is almost dependent on which group we're talking about. Um, but that would mean that we'd have to have multiple improvement points, which is hard to do. Um, you're trying to grow up everybody together and come together and focus so that you can kind of create a common bond, create the common movement. Um, I guess that your work encompasses, like you said, the five-year-old, so that 15 year old from the faculty members to the community in which you serve, where should we improve first?
Speaker 2 00:08:50 Yeah, I mean, this is, this is like the question, uh, many organizations and many schools, and one thought is what if we first improve with our faculty and staff, those who have the penultimate responsibility for our kids, they will ultimately create the environments that kids need in order to be able to thrive, engage me in these conversations. Um, and there's, I think some truth to that. And yet, um, there's a lot of opportunity for, for our kids. And so I've stopped actually trying to get the sequence completely, right? Like I th I think that there is more right than wrong. That one should be going after, because folks, people in general, on such different journeys, journeys around awareness, journeys, around and diagnosis of what the key issues are, uh, journeys around, um, or reckoning of the history stories and informations that they have been shared as told to them that trying to like figure out where to start first is, uh, difficult given that there are like so many dimensions to where like any one person can be. And I think the place where I've gotten to has been well, how do we build capacity for whomever, wherever they are.
Speaker 2 00:10:23 And that doesn't always lend itself to the most systematic or strategic approach, because, uh, you could have an infinite number of places where any one person can be particularly, you know, the five-year-old to the fifteen-year-old. But when I reflect and ask myself that question, that does actually enable me to meet people individually, where, where they're at on their, their journey to understanding and, and really reckoning
Speaker 0 00:10:53 Sounds like more of a, it's a case by case basis. You kind of have to talk to get to know a person individually organization and organization individually, figure out where they all on their journey from, from my teachers were watching. I know can completely relate to, because that's what we try to tell policy makers about kids. You can't just expect us to be able to get this kid to pass this test. I have to take this case where they are when they come in my room and meet them there and I can roll them possibly, but I can't, you know, I can't take them at pre-primer level one level by the end of the year. That's not realistic. Um, so I think that idea of meeting people where they are on this diversity inclusion and equity journey is awesome. Um, my question then, because I have parents that are interested in this as well.
Speaker 0 00:11:47 And so I guess, I mean, I would assume that most parents feel that they are further along on the journey, especially parents of color who are probably further along on the journey. They know something's not right. They really need to be advocates and know they want to hold people accountable, not quite sure how, how, how can, how can they do it in your experience being that you do work in a secondary elementary setting? What advice might you give to parents who are trying to figure out how to hold their educational organizations accountable for making sure that they are at least talking about journey and given the fact that we just said that everybody's in different?
Speaker 2 00:12:32 Yeah, I think it's such a important question. And before I would ask a parent to, to think about and consider, uh, school leaders or teachers, I would want them to consider where are they with their own kid? So the reason that, that I, that I say that is because I actually think that sometimes parents imbue a certain kind of meaning of experience onto their kid and the education that isn't always accurate. Sometimes it's a, like I remember when, or sometimes it was like, this was what my experience was. Or sometimes the experience is so disconnected. So I may have attended one kind of school and my kid is now attending a different kind of school. So when you begin to advocate for accountability, you have to do that from a real place of data. What's that data. And is that data, the actual experience sort of, of your kid, or are we sort of contextualize in a current moment where you're all the things that are happening, but is that what's happening with your kid at your school, having some sort of intimacy of understanding with your kid and having that, then be the thing that you are advocating on behalf of, I think is, is hugely important.
Speaker 2 00:14:08 And, and I say this as someone who had been in conversations with parents, where I go, I actually don't think that reflects like our kids' current experiences. Rather. I think that our kids are using a different language or rather, I think that our kids have more facility to be in this conversation. And you were exercising some level of restraint around this conversation that our kids are like, no, we talk about this or they talk about it because it's like, you know, some chat with their friends, but they are totally sort of, um, in Vogue. So to speak with language and concepts, sometimes parents are not where to move into the actual action of accountability. We'll be starting that with what does school leadership have as the expectations for the students that they are producing? Like you can't expect a whole-school leadership accountable to a thing that they don't aspire to do.
Speaker 0 00:15:16 That is very powerful. You, so basically, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 00:15:26 You can't expect the school to, to, to produce kids who have, uh, empathy across difference and ability to talk about identities and have a correct and accurate account of our history. If that's not what I'm saying, that we say we're going to do, you might be wondering, well, how the hell could a school not say that they were going to do that, but some schools right now have to actually clarify what it is are setting out to do in a climate and culture that's calling for more because they didn't know that was the thing that they needed to do.
Speaker 0 00:16:01 You're figuring it out as I go that's right. Well, I think both of those points, parents, I hope you're listening. Like number one, you have to make sure that you are figuring out where your kid is really, before you go, trying to hold somebody else accountable, you have to figure out where your kid is. And then once you figure out where your kid is placed before you go screaming for them to be different, is that the right place, is that their mission, their mission align with what you're trying to have your kid be exposed to and start from there. So I think those were both two very good pieces of advice. I know you're a very busy guy and I want to thank you so much for taking the opportunity to talk to us today. Very important topic, but you've been extremely insightful to parents and teachers and the words of Dr.
Speaker 0 00:16:58 Roland, we all have needs, and we want our needs to be realized. And the places that we learn, I think that in doing this work, if we start there, the idea that everyone deserves to be seen and represented in education, as long as that is the starting point, we would be hard pressed to go wrong. Thank you again for taking time to speak with us. And thank you for listening. Show notes and resources to the things we talked about today are available on our website at www, just like me presents that, share this podcast with other educators and parents in your circle and remember to subscribe. So you never miss an episode next week, we will be talking about and how we can begin to rethink how our children think about their future today. Thanks for listening. And remember, if our children can see it, they can achieve it.
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